Stats or No Stats? That is the Question!

Hello members of FTRP!

Today, on the discord server, a few of the members were having a conversation about stats and their role on this RP forum. Magic is quite an important part of the site! It is a great way to exercise your creative freedom here on FTRP, and there have been many discussions about whether or not stats hinder this ability for creativity.

That is why the staff has decided to come to you all to get your opinion. There was a small discussion about whether stats should be kept or discarded within the suggestions section of this forum, but we wanted to get your opinions on a larger scale. As we have said, we only want for you all to have the best possible experience on this site, so if you would prefer to keep stats, they will be kept, and if you believe that it would be better without, then they will be dissolved. It's all up to you guys!

So please vote here using the poll above, and then feel free to reply to this post with your opinion on the matter! We would love to get your feedback!

Thank you all in advance for your input!

Yes. I perfer the neatness and organization, and clear separation of powers.

Voted to remove stats entirely, since frankly they are completely unnecessary and hinders the roleplaying experience. Jobs can be completed without a single stat used and most jobs do not require stats in the first place. Many features of this site do not include stats besides PVP, and even then most PVP is plot, meaning that stats are no involved or the participants collaborate so stats are no longer relevant.

We build systems around stats instead of stats around systems, and there's currently no system in place that needs stats. Stats, I think, are only here to make the grading process longer and a chore for everyone. I think lots of people continue to use stats because of personal obligation and it's what they're used to doing.

I kind of like them, even if cosmetically scaled for just a basic interpretation. Like percentage of a characters' strengths and weaknesses.

I prefer the Stats, it gives the site the exciting feel of a game and a sense of reward when you work your way up. I feel like it makes the site stand out against the rp sites I used to frequent. Getting rid of them would take out some of the fun in my opinion.

I'd rather the stats remain, it makes things clear and concise when it comes to magic as everyone knows what something can and can not do. To remove this means the magic system once again has to be revamped and given how often it has been revamped even with small tweaks it's just becoming more than a little frustrating to continuously having to change/alter/update magics especially when you can only post one magic every seven days per person.

Stats are entirely arbitrary numbers that serve only to make creating magic and grading magic more like a chore. The likelihood of *actually* using them in thread is about 0.

Honestly I am all for Stats. There is no real PVP system however I like using Stats for jobs and the like to actually give the task some meaning and effort.

Stats are fairly needed because spells have different levels of power on site based on rank and without stats spells have no way to be differentiated besides simply saying "It is stronger" which will not work on the site with how it has been, especially if we ever have threads where members fight each other. There would be no way to tell how big a spell should be or its power without stats and would be all word of mouth and what the user prefers at that moment in time which is an easy thing to abuse.

Also stats allow for magic to have debuffs whereas without stats debuffs become relatively unusable which throws away a creative aspect to magic.

Yes, it makes grading harder on staff to do but stats give a reason for grading also and make sure people don't have OP spells. Without them people can pretty much state how strong a spell is whenever they want and however they want.

So that tells you which side I'm going for here with this.

Hey hey :3 so here is my opinion.

Personally, I enjoy having the stats in place. It helps me have a visual image in my mind of how far things go. To be honest, I sort of struggle with the visual representation of things and numbers kinda help when it comes to a thing like this, not gonna lie...

lol now I can imagine people be like "but you can do that without stats you feckin daftie!!!"

I do, however, respect the fact that people do want to bypass stats altogether, but like most of the people I have had encounters with, I was under the assumption that having stats was optional now?? :)

I have never pvped, but have always found the stats very useful. I have seen how 'descriptive' people can be in abilities when there are no stats needed. Stats being there I feel forces one to have to be creative in order to make the spell the way you want it to work. Want a multi hit spell? Without stats you could treat that the same as a single target spell, which doesn't feel or sound balanced to me. It makes differences in elements or spells less important, harder to say how much a buff or debuff affects you when the stats they are affecting is basically D rank, C rank, ect. I've thought about stats and the way certain spells of mine work when doing jobs, their strengths and weaknesses. To me, figuring out how to make a PVM fight make sense and still show your character as a flawed but growing person is far more exciting when you have to think about their different sets of skills, what different spells are good with, what your character is good with and bad with. I can use one good example from a job I recently finished. My character was trying to hit a boss and stupidly tried to block with an attack spell. It broke instead of lasting all the turns it normally could because it has no defense stats, only attack. It didn't get to be good at blocking just because it looks like it should be. That made it more fun for me to type that fight up.

I've always liked stats, one of my favorite parts of the site has been crafting magic all while making things balanced. Either way, stats are already optional, people don't need to use them if they really don't want to.

Luceam wrote:

Honestly I hated the stat system for a few reasons, allow me to explain.

In Practice: As the staff and many members like to say, we don't get too much PVP. Stats are primarily used for PVP purposes, plus in many cases PVP is for plot purposes with generally a fixed outcome in mind. Stats can be seen as redundant when you take into account the variables, such as enemies in thread are essentially controlled by the participants, which is a controlled and arguably fixed outcome.

Just a mathematical pain: When you consider the above point, making the numbers can be stressful on newer people and annoying for Staff to double check and calculate as well. Many members neglect these and already use a plot based system to judge and create, which can provide much more creative freedom. Do staff really want to spend time calculating every little detail?

Cookie Cutter: The system is flawed, everyone has the same base stats. Some characters spend their lives training their minds and others their bodies, yet a small loli gets to deal the same physical damage as a buff macho man, and a caveman can inflict as much magic damage as a trained novice character? A 300 pound lard tub can run as fast as a track star? The stats are a complete lack of individuality of the characters and are reduced to basics, and everyone has the same which brings the difference down to ranks. The only way to create individuality among the stats is to use buffs, which is in my opinion not the best as it brings everything back to rank, or even on equal ranks who has the more buffs.  Base stats should be more reflective of the character, instead of having all of them the same, should be more diverse so it feels like they actually describe the character. Such as a C rank Caveman's stats being,

Spoiler:

instead of:

Spoiler:

It makes no sense that all characters are equal in base when the basic logic of diversity should dictate that things would not unfold as such.

Concluding thoughts: While many people already neglect stats, I personally think it's best they remain something that remains optional. Without stats the free form creativity can allow for opportunities such as gaps of certain types of strength.

Not bashing, just wanting to say, that a lot of people have came to the site because they loved the idea of stats. And plus, once you get past all those stats, you get to be free and do what you want. You aren't limited by stats. They were never meant to be that restricting. Also, you don't even need to add stats to magic anymore, so why does it matter that stats are optional? Also, for the cookie cutter thing, you do have to realize that ranks are basically showing how much your magic has progressed, in the FT world. They are there because they show your character progressing in strength and etc. Also, you could argue that because they're magical, that regular stats without magic wouldn't matter much. A loli against a cavemen without magic, would lose instantly, but if one were to say a loli that has progressed strong enough to be S rank, fights a cavemen only known to be as strong as a d rank, that would make a different. I feel like whenever you make a character for the first time, you are basically creating an empty slate so to speak. They are nobodies in the world, and have to prove that they are stronger. The ranks and stats show that. It wouldn't make sense for someone to be able to obliterate the world at C rank because they're strength is insanely high after centuries of body training. I think the reason why a stats like melee damage are like that, is because of the fact that you gain energy from the strength of your magic. Magic is meant to up the skills of your strength. If you think, about it as potential energy, you can think of it as energy waiting to be used through things such as punches or spells. At least, thats just what I think. Plus, you can easily make yourself stronger through spells and UA's as well as passives, and weapons. There is so much freedom when it comes to stat based things, that removing it completely could make things feel less fun, and a bit chaotic. But yea, it should remain optional. I just feel like stats are something that some people don't see as fun because of the fact that it gives them limitations. But, those limitations makes things fun. You can accurately see how strong your character is, as well as how much you can do with your character. People can easily abuse things without stats, but I feel like keeping them, even if optional, could help us know the guidelines to it all without even needing to type them up.

Stats. This has already been discussed and even in that suggestion thread it was quite clear people wanted to keep stats. Imo, based on how I've seen statless grading thus far, it is being restricting with the grader's interpretation on what is considered as "too powerful." Even in questions tab when someone had a question regarding that the answer was a grader would determine if it was "too overpowered." It is being decided based on what they believe that rank is capable of. I do not like this personally. With stats I am free to do as I please with the description and how that spell operates so long as I have the proper numbers inside it. To me, this is the more free form option, and newbies and those that don't know what they're capable of doing with the current magic rules are unaware of this.

For everything else everyone already covered it so I won't go into it. I will add on that if you remove stats entirely then you may as well remove the grading system. It shouldn't be needed by that point.

Samira is right on the money. The fact is, without stats to garner whether one ability is stronger than another, you fall into the all consuming rabbit-hole that is creative freedom. Creating strictures on magic, a wondrous power with no actual base in reality, allows magic to exist in a relatable form, the form of numbers.

Since people have been using the example of a Loli vs. a Giant, let's break that down in real terms. Without the aid of the wondrous power that is magic, a young girl cannot even lift a weapon: even daggers, if you didn't know, are far too heavy to be wielded in any effective manner by a child below the age of ten. If you, then, apply the concept of "magic", and say that the child now has the speed and strength to defeat the giant, but neglect to provide evidence (numbers) as to why that is besides "magic", the loli character's victory is immediately and completely devalued. As writers, literal 4th dimensional gods of the worlds we write of, we are capable of any and all things, and can grant any power or coincidence we wish. Without innate limitations on that power, any struggle a character overcomes is meaningless, as we, the writers, simply decided that they would overcome it. Similarly, any tragedy is senseless, because we, the writers, simply willed the tragedy into existence.

I'm not suggesting that the value of a story is based solely in some arbitrary numbers, and that without them, there's no point to RP: what I am suggesting, however, is that adventuring as a wizard in the Fairy Tail universe is enriched by the existence of limitations on our characters and what they can accomplish at any given time. Need to use a spell to keep your character from being hit with a lot of damage, but you're almost out of mana? That's a tense situation, one that can lead to a real sense of accomplishment when the enemy is defeated despite that.

I'd like to remind everyone that, as is, there is already no actual limitation as to how much one can accomplish in a single post in combat. For purposes of PVP, this is already a massive issue of balance: it would be impossible for PVP to occur in a system without stats, unless both parties agreed beforehand who would win, and at that point, it's not PVP, it's plot.

So, I am in the camp of keeping stats around. They're important, even if they have some drawbacks, and as Nessa said, they really do make you feel as though your character is growing as they rank up, as it should be.