Hybrid slayers

I think that hybrid slayers should be able to use their hybrid force at will. The reason i think this is because: A- It can be done in canon (yes i know this is not a canon site, but it still borrows some elements of canon since its the same universe) and B- to be a hybrid slayer, you need to either have 2 slayer lacrimas or have 1 lacrima and a slayer position. this means that its about as hard getting hybrid as it is getting third gen. and third gen CAN use force at will. I hope you consider this change that i propose.


Cheers

-zenmedi

Still disagree cause have two elements compared to one only costing small decrease compared to 3rd gen buff.Ntm the fact you have two different elements to eat from counter balances that. However I would ask to change the fact cant have cancel outable elements when becoming hybrid; since people have way to write strentgh against opisiite element; Ex unmeltable ice or water beating fire and viceversa.

Ok, I really don't think they should because of the perks a hybrid slayer already has. An example is a metal and shadow hybrid slayer has the ability to consume both shadows and metal, they also have access to both kinds of attacks and resistant to them. You could even argue that a hybrid dragon slayer can enter two different kinds of dragon forces because of their ability to consume either element. Of course, the reason I believe why a third gen. dragon slayer is able to enter the force willingly is because they have developed mastery over the element, allowing them this advantage.

And about slave's comment, I still do believe that hybrid slayers should not have conflicting elements. And while yes, some match-ups are not going to be possible for a slayer to win, this is natural to all magics(Though if someone is claiming to have unmeltable ice, then their has to be a serious drawback to that). Also, the second element a dragon slayer learns can still counter the main elements weakness without it conflicting with the main element. Ex. A fire dragon slayer with a lighting dragon slayer larcima, this way going against a water dragon slayer is much easier since lightning counters water.

Lots of fire mages say they put out water of equal or lower rank anyway and vice versa with water. Also the bit about lightning can go both ways; pure water is strong against elec. But the elements dont have to be mashed together in a way; for example can have ice that burns from the cold and fire that numbs from the heat or just freezes since its magic.

Also will admit while opposite elements can't; but can be alright if write it right.

The balancing of slayers and especially force is a hard task for development. They are the way they are  for very calculated and well thought out reasons, for the most part. We did not give only 3rd gen instant force on a whim, hours of intense discussion, analysis of pros and cons, went into the system at present. Much hair was pulled, some names were called, and blood was shed(mostly mine, I'm a bleeder). That in mind the reasons presented in favor of this are in my opinion insubstantial to alter the decision that was reached

The general decision by dev team, or at least the one that gave us the most recent version of force rules can be quickly surmised as such:
While earning a hybrid slayer magic set up is just as hard as a 3rd gen, it has its own separate perks and benefits that are equal to if not better then 3rd gen perks as is.

Insta-force is 3rd gen's thing. Eating 2 elements is Hybrid Slayers.

Edit 1: Disclaimer: I have been off development team for almost 2 months and am not in any way shape or form a representative of staff or their opinions. This is merely my two cents as an Ex-Dev.

While it makes sense why they dont go hybrid force at will, a way to make that more viable is make hybrid force either weaker, or cost mana like a spell. But if you can actually do both DF's, then it really doesn't matter now does it? xD

I'm alright with no hybrid force at will, just tossing up options for the discussion! :P

As has been mentioned before, Hybrid Slayers already have some really strong advantages that Third Gen Slayers don't have.

You can rapidly recover mana from two sources instead of one. Even if you happen to have two sources that you can't easily access, that's still more than if you're a Mono-Slayer (single element Slayer).

You're very effective against two elements instead of one. Mono-Slayers can only boast a heavy advantage towards one type of element. As a Hybrid you can give two entirely different elemental mages the finger even if the two elements can't be complete opposites.

You're just a lot more versatile because you can use the advantages of two different elements. You can have the speed and offensive power of a Lightning Slayer while also slowing down enemies and blocking attacks with the powers of an Ice Slayer (I'm assuming the opposite of Lightning is Earth, not Ice).

No Mono-Slayer, whether they're First, Second, or Third generation, can use these advantages. They can only gain energy from one source, they are only that effective against a single element, and while creativity can do a lot it's unlikely that as a Fire Slayer you can develop the ability to poison people. Actually I'm pretty sure that even if you could think up an explanation for why a Fire Slayer could use effects similar to poison it'd be denied on the general principle that being the Slayer of a certain element means you have to suffer the advantages and disadvantages of that element.

And these advantages for Hybrids aren't advantages you can just wave away or try to make them sound insignificant. Being able to eat both Fire and Shadow means that suddenly you could shoot fireballs and when you're out of mana just step into a shadow and begin gulping it down, or the other way around if you're feeling hungry just use mundane means to get a campfire going and then eat bits and pieces of that campfire. Eating the attacks of both air mages and water mages means there's now two very common elements the enemy can't properly use against you. Being able to be as tough and enduring as an Earth Slayer while still shooting enemies to pieces with the lazers of a Light Slayer is going to make you a lot more difficult to deal with than a Slayer who has to choose between those two advantages.

Being a Third Gen Slayer is basically giving up on these advantages. Even though you went through the trouble of getting the position of a certain Slayer AND got yourself a Slayer Lachrima you still can only devour one element, you're still only extra effective against a single type of element, and you still only have the advantages of that element and can't use another element to cover the weaknesses.

Honestly becoming a Third Gen Slayer would actually be a pretty big loss in potential power if the Third Gen wasn't given some extra stuff. I don't exactly find the argument 'you can use all your spell slots for a single element instead of having to divide it between two' a very solid argument. I mean, it's not like you're that starved for spell slots after you've clawed your way out of D-Rank. Honestly if you make each and every spell you have worthwhile I'm pretty sure a lot of people would realize that they actually have a difficult time filling their entire repertoire with good quality spells. I've heard plenty of people comment about how they're having difficulty thinking of what their last B-Rank Spell should be or that they thought they were done with their magic app only to realize they still have an extra S-Rank left with no inspiration.

So the Third Gen Slayers need some love purely because if they didn't then nobody would ever bother becoming one. They'd just always become a Hybrid Slayer instead. While some people might be willing to sacrifice the existence of Third Gen Slayers so Hybrid Slayers can activate Force at will I, quite honestly and bluntly, would accuse those people of being a bit too greedy and selfish.

Hybrid and Third Gen Slayers take about as much difficulty to become. It would be strange if one of them felt distinctly weaker than the other.

And from a lore point of view, being a First Gen Slayer means you have gained extensive knowledge about the element and how to utilize it. Being a Second Gen Slayer means you've incorporated that element in your body. First Gen Slayers are better at using their magic even though it took a lot longer for them to get a good grip on it, while Second Gen Slayers can easily pull out the element but lack the training and knowledge of the First Gen, meaning their magic is going to be more primal and straightforward, lacking versatility and potential.

The Third Gen combines the knowledge and training of a First Gen with the raw elemental power one gains from putting a Lachrima of that element inside their body, basically making that element a part of their being. That means they can easily pull out that element and control it like a part of their body, but at the same time can use their knowledge and training to use it for feats that require a lot more skill and control than a Second Gen could hope to have. They combine the advantages of the First and the Second Gen while getting rid of the disadvantages.

Meanwhile a Hybrid Gen, if you wanted to be realistic, would have the First Gen advantages with one element and the Second Gen advantages with the other.

To activate Force the Third Gen uses the fact that the element is now a part of their body and being, and the knowledge and skill to temporarily merge themselves even more with that element. Both the First and the Second Gen advantages are required to be able to pull out that power and activate it at will instead of having to rely on an outside source to provide enough energy to force it to occur.

I imagine that a First Gen needs to gain enough mana from an outside source because while they have lots of training and experience with using that element to enhance themselves they lack the raw power required. They gather more of that energy from external sources of the required element so they have the power required to activate Force.

The Second Gen on the other hand technically has the raw power but not the experience and training to pull it all out and use it to its fullest potential. They need even more energy from the outside so their body, which already is used to assimilating magic of that element, can compensate for the lack of required knowledge by just brute forcing it and assimilating enough of the required element that Force is activated through a less cost efficient means.

A Hybrid Gen would still have to deal with these disadvantages. They might have the required training for one element, but the inherent power is for the other element, and even if they have two elements to use those two still act separately inside their body. They can't pull out the energy from their Ice Slayer Lachrima and then use the knowledge on how to use Water Slayer magic to activate Force. They still need to gain energy from the outside world, to give the First Gen element the required power to be able to activate and the Second Gen enough power to force it to activate. They can convert Ice and Water from the outside world into raw energy for both sources, but what is inside of them is divided into two elements and one can't be used to fuel the other.

Basically a Hybrid lacks the complete understanding and assimilation with a single element to be able to activate the Hybrid Force without help.

Of course, this is just me throwing in my theory. And I realize that it also doesn't work exactly this way on the site. For example I don't think Second Gen Slayers are required to make their spells more brute force than First Gen Slayers. However I hope I've at least explained my theory well enough that it is understood why Hybrid Slayers don't really require at will Force activation, and why Third Gen needs to have that extra advantage to avoid everybody just becoming a Hybrid Slayer.

And yes, Third Gen Slayers also have the advantage that they can eat their respective element regardless of whether it's infused with holiness or defilement. That's just another extra thing to ensure Hybrid Slayers aren't just plain stronger. Force at will is nice, but most of the time you probably either don't need Force or you're in a situation where, having two elements to consume, you are probably able to find enough to eat anyway.

And from a lore point of view, I don't really see how having two elements inside you would make you better at eating holy or vileness infused versions of either element. Especially since neither Holy or Vileness is a Slayer element (I find it strange that the opposite of Holy is only ever called Unholy so I just call it Vile. If anybody can think of a better name I'm still considering other possibilities).

On a slightly unrelated note I don't really like how you can't become a Hybrid of two opposite elements. I can see how the staff would come to that conclusion, both from a lore point of view and a balance point of view, but I've already thought of several combinations of two opposite elements which would be quite awesome. I know that at the same time it's also the most easy way to become broken overpowered, but still, some of those ideas were quite nice... Bit of a shame that they are also unbalanced so I can't exactly claim that they are made impossible with no good reason.

Speaking as the only Third Generation Slayer on the forum at the moment... Hybrid Slayers can go **** **********.  If Hybrid Slayers were permitted to Force at Will, like Third Gens, there would literally be no point in being a Third Generation Slayer.  We give up the option to have a secondary magic to propel our primary magic, our primary element, to its greatest potential.  

"And yes, Third Gen Slayers also have the advantage that they can eat their respective element regardless of whether it's infused with holiness or defilement. That's just another extra thing to ensure Hybrid Slayers aren't just plain stronger. "  -Akeya

Is this a thing?  I was actually not aware that Third Generations were capable of even eating God or Demon Slayer Elements...  If this is not true I really recommend it, because although Force at Will is a spectacular perk, it still seems a little lax and it also seems as though becoming a God or Demon Slayer is in fact way easier (And cheaper) than becoming a Third Generation Dragon Slayer and I feel as though we should be placed on the same pedestal.

Lastly, becoming a Hybrid of opposite elements, in my own opinion is perfectly ok. What is NOT ok is using them in combination or using them to cancel the weaknesses of the other. If you take on an opposing element to your primary, you accept the drawbacks of not being capable of using them together, only seperately. If you combine your Flame fist with your water fist, guess what? you got no goddamn fist, and that is how it should be.

I distinctly remember reading about how Third Gen Dragon Slayers could also eat mixed versions of their element in the past. However it seems that in the last half year or so when staff started to become more enthusiastic in updating the rules they removed the direction mention of it.

HOWEVER!

'Third Generation: Third Generation Dragon Slayer, is one who is trained by the dragon, and obtains a lacrima of the same Dragon Slayer magic. This combination of likes sky-rockets their own natural abilities to match even those of the God and Demon Slayer abilities.'

This is what can still be found in the Getting Started section. It basically states that a Third Gen Dragon Slayer is considered to be on even terms with the God and Demon Slayers.

Of course, technically God Slayers can't eat their respective element when it was produced by a Demon Slayer and the other way around, so it might be better to just say that God, Demon, and Third Gen Dragon Slayers just can't eat other's stuff at all.

In which case it still gives Third Gen Slayers a fair advantage over Hybrid Slayers and allows Third Gen to feel like you aren't just going to lose because those God and Demon Slayers are around (I actually don't like God and Demon Slayers).

As for the drawbacks on having two opposing elements, couldn't you use Fire and Water Fist at the same time to create Steam Fist? I mean, that's what would happen if you just look at what happens when you throw fire and water together.

Thought about that before regarding steam fist; though combat wise dosent seem that useful to me unless doing a smoker kind of thing. Plus looking at other elements; cant electrify earth or have your ice on fire unless want it to melt; I'm all for them influencing each other in a way and totally fine with keeping them apart(mostly).

Edit: just realized there is one example in the anime of opposite elements being used together(yes i remember noncanon).

Spoiler warning for those who havent seeen:

Steam can be just as hot as fire and has an easier time spreading out, requiring no fuel. It is also less obvious. Basically a Steam Fist would allow you to burn and scorch people upon contact without it being as flashy as a Fire Fist, and another bonus would be that it wouldn't be completely blocked by water.

Other opposites are a bit more tricky, but just like how the canon combination worked out I'm pretty sure I could have the others work as well. It would just be a bit more fantasy logic and less 'what do you get when you throw these things together in real life'.

Although as said before the act of combining them is what would make them unbalanced. Especially Light and Shadow. Although Ice and Fire would be a close second in brokenness.