Important Suggestion. (No Hostility)

Before I begin this suggestion, I would like to point out my reasons. While I realize this site is primarily PvE run, there are many people here who would like to do plenty of PvP, but there is no good system for it. The current damage system is very poor for PvP. People don't want to do it just to fight or fuel their God complex, they want to do it for personal plot or a hobby. Good rp's should always have a mix of PvP and PvE. The current system of 10% damage from your own rank is ridiculous, it destroys the point of limiting the amount of higher ranked spells. An H rank spell should hurt the crap out of anyone, even an H rank. While it will not knock out an H rank, it should sure as hell knock out D-B. So my suggestion is this, to give each rank a health, and each spell it's own damage. Spell damages will never change, and health will not necessarily double each time. I am not saying change the current PvE rules either, those can stay the same as they are. This is basically a separate rule set for PvP all together. Cause the whole, X Monster can take 2 B rank hits is fine. People don't realize how hard it is to take a hit, cause most of the time you will dodge or block the hit. On every forum I have been on, fights can still last two pages before 3 hits will be dished out. So fighting length will not be majorly affected. While this is just a suggestion, I hope it is taken seriously. Thank you for your time in reading this.

Health per rank:
D-30
C-45
B-80 (There is a jump from C to B because it is the first one that requires an exam)
A-110
S(SS)-150
H-200

Damage per spell rank:
D-10
C-20
B-30
A-50
S-70
H-100

The numbers can be reworked, they are just a starting suggestion. To get an idea of what I mean. Also this make's percentages easier to work into health. Thanks again.

Additional possibility for this I thought up could be specializations. You can have a bruiser/tank who has additional HP per rank, but lower MP or spell damage, or a full caster who deals extra spell damage or has more MP but less HP per rank. Something like that could make it so players can better feel like their character is an unstoppable tank or a squishy assassin or caster.

Used something similar on my site to what both of you have said here. The HP and Damage system I had had it set for non-spell melee damage, non-spell weapon melee damage and spell damage was all different to give a difference in damages depending on rank.

The rule of thumb here is that it takes 10 hits of your rank to KO you so if I were to work the rules I had into that it would look something like...

Character HP

All characters have a set amount of HP based on their rank. The chart below shows these amounts.


HP By Class Level
D-class mages: 100 HP
C-class mages: 200 HP
B-class mages: 400 HP
A-class mages: 800 HP
S-class mages: 1600 HP
SS-class Mages: 3200 HP
H-class mages: 4800 HP


Damage By Spell Rank/Class Attack

Each damage below has a scheme to them where spell damage is 10 hits of a user of that rank’s HP. Non-spell weapon damage is roughly 13 hits and Non spell melee is 20 hits of an equal ranked user’s HP.

Also a note on weapon damage. The damage a weapon deals is equal to what that weapon would do based on that user’s rank. This does not change the weapons actual rank meaning that it will still be its own rank for its own abilities and durability. This rule is ripped straight from the rules on site already.

Chart below will display the amount of damage for spells, non-spell weapons and non-spell melee attacks.

D-rank spells/attacks:
Spell damage - 10 dmg
Non-spell weapon melee - 8 dmg
Non-spell weaponless melee - 5 dmg

C-rank spells/attacks:
Spell damage - 20 dmg
Non-spell weapon melee - 16 dmg
Non-spell weaponless melee - 10 dmg

B-rank spells/attacks:
Spell damage - 40 dmg
Non-spell weapon melee - 32 dmg
Non-spell weaponless melee - 20 dmg

A-rank spells/attacks:
Spell damage - 80 dmg
Non-spell weapon melee - 64 dmg
Non-spell weaponless melee - 40 dmg

S-rank/SS-Rank spells/attacks:
Spell damage - 160 dmg
Non-spell weapon melee - 128 dmg
Non-spell weaponless melee - 80 dmg

H-rank spells/attacks:
Spell damage - 480 dmg
Non-spell weapon melee - 384 dmg
Non-spell weaponless melee - 240 dmg

Side Note in Reference to Damage amounts stated in Older Apps: Damages on site are in reference to spell rank damage meaning any apps saying how much of a rank of damage they can take is by the spell damage of that rank.

Example - 2 D-ranks of damage would be 20 damage. 1.5 D-ranks of damage would be 15, etc.

I also had a system made up for this where Weapons, Armors, Pets and Items had a certain amount of HP for each rank too but don't know if that is something I should put here. Also the damages on this system can be easily changed by dropping the HP amount to how ever many attack hits of rank you want to have needed to KO a person.

The reason why melee with and without weapons is lower than spell damage is to differentiate them and show that spells deal more damage overall for what they cost. Any melee enhanced by a spell would deal the spell rank in damage.

My other rules that differentiated members from each other was a simple stat system. The stat system can be seen here.

These rules were all made after I saw the holes that this site had and I went about trying to make the most simplest of rules to fix these holes. Don't know what many of you would think on them but they were basically made to be added here if wanted and allowed to be.

I am 100% down for this, including what Almy said as well.

Coming from a guy who is a Hybrid Slayer, we would definitely have to nerf 3rd Gens and Hybrids in the department of being able to activate their Force mode whenever they so desire. Instead of buffing everything up to the next rank and a half, I'd say for PVP purposes perhaps give say a 25% bonus to all stats and 50% bonus to their spells if they activate their Force mode instead of doubling all their stats and putting their spells into the next rank and a half with the current 150% bonus. That stuffs all fine and good for PVE, but it'd need a separate area for its PVP functions. These are just suggestion numbers and can be tweaked as desired by the staff.

I really want this kind of idea to succeed and I don't want it to be ruined just cuz I can activate Force whenever I want. I'm behind this all the way, just we need to keep 3rd Gens and Hybrids sillyness in mind.

One of my major points was 10 hits is a bit too much, 3 to 4 is a lot more realistic. I personally have been in a duel here, and have done PvP on many sites. It's not easy to land 10 hits, especially without blowing all of your magic in doing so. But I do appreciate the suggestions, and the feedback thus far. Keep it coming.

Cirven, the main reason for this suggestion is to decrease health is for two reasons, one, getting hit by an H-rank should mess up even an H-rank. And 10 hits of your rank is a hell of a lot of damage. These numbers make it so you can take about 3 hits of your rank, 4 hits of one lower than your own, and 2 hits of the rank above you (with the exception of S and H-ranks). It can get kind of dumb at high ranks especially, since you only have a few high-rank spells on long cooldowns (hell, H-rank spells can only be used a few times per thread as well, making them REALLY underwhelming against an H or S-rank.)

DragonPantsu wrote:I am 100% down for this, including what Almy said as well.

Coming from a guy who is a Hybrid Slayer, we would definitely have to nerf 3rd Gens and Hybrids in the department of being able to activate their Force mode whenever they so desire. Instead of buffing everything up to the next rank and a half, I'd say for PVP purposes perhaps give say a 25% bonus to all stats and 50% bonus to their spells if they activate their Force mode instead of doubling all their stats and putting their spells into the next rank and a half with the current 150% bonus. That stuffs all fine and good for PVE, but it'd need a separate area for its PVP functions. These are just suggestion numbers and can be tweaked as desired by the staff.

I really want this kind of idea to succeed and I don't want it to be ruined just cuz I can activate Force whenever I want. I'm behind this all the way, just we need to keep 3rd Gens and Hybrids sillyness in mind.

Yeah, this has always been a sort of issue. I had it that anyone who could activate their Force freely got lowered boosts. Instead of 150% they got 100% and their spells were not free for that time either for a regular Force and a freely activated one. I feel it balanced it out more but still could be pretty OP.

Fire King Ardere wrote:One of my major points was 10 hits is a bit too much, 3 to 4 is a lot more realistic. I personally have been in a duel here, and have done PvP on many sites. It's not easy to land 10 hits, especially without blowing all of your magic in doing so. But I do appreciate the suggestions, and the feedback thus far. Keep it coming.

I have too but it was something that the others I re-worked my own rules on thought of so I went with it. When I made the rules on my site it was 5 spell hits per rank to KO which I felt was pretty fair and actually still do.

Almyra Bys wrote:Cirven, the main reason for this suggestion is to decrease health is for two reasons, one, getting hit by an H-rank should mess up even an H-rank. And 10 hits of your rank is a hell of a lot of damage. These numbers make it so you can take about 3 hits of your rank, 4 hits of one lower than your own, and 2 hits of the rank above you (with the exception of S and H-ranks). It can get kind of dumb at high ranks especially, since you only have a few high-rank spells on long cooldowns (hell, H-rank spells can only be used a few times per thread as well, making them REALLY underwhelming against an H or S-rank.)

I understand where you are coming from with H-rank stuff but with how the rules are on site an H-rank is 3 times the strength of a S-rank in every way or at least thats the way it has been depicted for awhile now. These rules can be changed to fit H-rank having less HP like I said though if it is seen as something needed.

I didn't have H-rank on my site at all and the last rank was SS which was only double of an S-rank which was me trying to follow the lore more.

I believe that is just multiplication for how many would be needed to knock an opponent of that rank out. Of which, I find it useful and would actually enjoy it; these seem relatively realistic in terms of what they are according to Civ. If it was any less, that would mean that the spell damage would have to be that much higher; making melee units even more obsolete. Granted the idea is to not get hit in general; there should not be a heavy influence on having spell damage being that significant in terms of power. As how they look now looks completely reasonable according to Civirn.

On my own personal note: I like this concept. Civirn's seems the most realistic as it does put in terms of Magic priority users have more burst, while the Melee priority have to stay close and deal lots of damage fast over having to cast a spell. So I can see it all working relatively well even if melee looks like it is on the downside: You can hit more than once with melee combos than one can upon casting a spell or two: all without burning mana. Each side has its pros and cons.

I have to say Cirven, 5 hits is a lot better than 10. It would be more realistic. The numbers obviously require reworking, but the my point still remains and people seems to grasp it. If you guys have better ways to do it, feel free to suggest it. But spell damage should not depend on rank, it should all be the same. I like what we have so far. I apologize for not including physical hits in my suggestion, and I would like some differentiation between the two. (magic and physical)

If spell damage did not depend on rank then rank would mean nothing. People should have levels to work towards and feel stronger as they level up.

Or did you read my rules as if what rank you were was the damage all your spells did? If so thats not how that worked at all. Spells deal damage based on their rank not the user's rank. Melee is different and falls under user rank based on the rules on site with weapon melee already. If this is how you read it I could clarify it more.

I'm wondering what everyone thinks on this too though. This type of thing should be discussed between members who are on site to see what they would like to have seeing as they all will be the ones using it after all. Just wondering if people care enough to try and get this stuff added.

Fire King Ardere wrote:I have to say Cirven, 5 hits is a lot better than 10. It would be more realistic. The numbers obviously require reworking, but the my point still remains and people seems to grasp it. If you guys have better ways to do it, feel free to suggest it. But spell damage should not depend on rank, it should all be the same. I like what we have so far. I apologize for not including physical hits in my suggestion, and I would like some differentiation between the two. (magic and physical)

I do not understand by what you mean on rank? If spell damage was not relevant to rank; that would mean that there is no difference between a D rank and an H rank spell in terms of damage. Which removes all sense of tactility in a fight. How Cirven states it up there; the damage per rank of the spell is notably obvious. At least that is what I see. And that in of itself appears balanced. If spell damage was universally the same; there would be no point in any of it. Unless I am reading this wrong: I am not seeing that H ranks do only 480 damage with their spells but that an H rank spell deals 480, which is a lot of damage. Granted the Health of ranks can come down a bit; but this system makes sense as it means that most other ranks cannot survive getting hit by such a powerful spell. Meanwhile, D rank spells deal 10 damage. Its just lining up with how much health the mage/fighter has according to their rank. That is how I am reading this and it makes sense to me. Hence why I am supportive of the 10% bit; but again we can change it to 20% as well, since that is what is happening by reducing the health or amount of hits needed.

Spell damage shouldn't depend on rank, rank means something because you can use the higher ranked spells that deal more damage.

What I mean by that is, H ranks should take damage from D ranks, it will be little, but they should take damage from them. That is the point. Cause currently even A's are immune to D ranked spells.

With the rules i have up they do take damage even though it is not a lot, it is still damage. No one and nothing should just be immune to being damaged. That is unbalanced and doesn't make much sense.

Btw this would be the chart if we follow 5 hits per spell rank for HP. It uses the same damages as I posted above.

HP By Class Level
D-class mages: 50 HP
C-class mages: 100 HP
B-class mages: 200 HP
A-class mages: 400 HP
S-class mages: 800 HP
SS-class Mages: 1600 HP
H-class mages: 2400 HP

Fire King Ardere wrote:What I mean by that is, H ranks should take damage from D ranks, it will be little, but they should take damage from them. That is the point. Cause currently even A's are immune to D ranked spells.

PvE wise, yes that is what the rules state.

However, PvP takes on a whole different meaning because all of the PvE rules disallow PvP or go against it. So there are different rules here in PvP than PvE: Which is what goes on above: damage is always taken, its just the health percentage ratio to damage that makes it looks like nothing.

That's why I was agreeing with you, my problem with the current rules is that higher ranks shrug off lower ranked damage completely, while it should not hold them back, after being consistently pummeled by those spells it should still do a good amount of damage. Like I said though, the numbers could be reworked. I'm fine with 5 hits, 10 was just too much for me. Especially when H ranks take 10 H ranks.

The thing is though there is no place in the rules where it says the differences between PvP and PvE, when there should be. I have no idea the damage differences, cause you cant point it out in the rules.

Fire King Ardere wrote:That's why I was agreeing with you, my problem with the current rules is that higher ranks shrug off lower ranked damage completely, while it should not hold them back, after being consistently pummeled by those spells it should still do a good amount of damage. Like I said though, the numbers could be reworked. I'm fine with 5 hits, 10 was just too much for me. Especially when H ranks take 10 H ranks.

So...why make it sound like you were arguing? You could have just gone "That is a good idea Cirven, but we just need to reduce the amount of health that everyone has in order to make things look a bit more realistic" instead of just saying "Damage should not be based on ranks."

We have no health amount to lower persay, we have percentages. My idea completely changes that. Also I did state beforehand damage should not be based on rank. Cirven responded to that.

Fire King Ardere wrote:The thing is though there is no place in the rules where it says the differences between PvP and PvE, when there should be. I have no idea the damage differences, cause you cant point it out in the rules.

...Did you not set this thread up for the specific reason of MAKING new rules? am I confused on here about this or what?

If I'm coming off as hostile or argumentative I'm sorry o.o I agree with several of your points, and I greatly appreciate the feedback. I'm happy you guys care about it enough to point out any flaws. That's why I put it out here. Yeah I did put this for new PvP rules .-. I never said I didn't put this up for new rules, I'm just saying I don't see where we have any PvP rules to begin with, or the difference between PvE and PvP here atm

There are no rules on this because they were never established which is what I thought we were trying to do here..?

These rules can be made to fit into PvE and PvP is worked in. They aren't too hard to learn and are only simple math problems for how many hits you need to do with each rank seeing as it just follows the rules already established on site for ranks and their differences.

Spell damage is dependent on the the spell's rank that is used. That has always been a thing but was never defined at all. With these rules we can define what that damage actually is finally rather than just saying a letter and have people guessing an amount of damage they are taking.

If used in PvE scenarios this can make jobs harder to do and make them more rewarding to complete too.

I thought Night was saying there was rules here, when I was trying to establish them. I must've gotten confused, cause I felt like he missed my point or something xD

Oh I see your point about PvE...hmmm...perhaps that's usable too o.o

PS: Night and I talked on skype, we were confusing each other it seemed.

Knowing Seijin he will probably not want to implant this if it affects PvE despite if it would make it better/harder for users.

The best method we need to come up with is a simple system for him to just post as a Rule somewhere for PvP so that there are no arguments on how long someone can live or how much damage they do.