Magic Rule Additions

To simply state, I think the magic rules need to be updated with the range and speeds guidelines the application graders use for the general public. I know there will be a lot of arguing about min-maxing and such, but overall it will make easier on the graders and the people writing the applications.

Edward Von Aurence wrote:To simply state, I think the magic rules need to be updated with the range and speeds guidelines the application graders use for the general public. I know there will be a lot of arguing about min-maxing and such, but overall it will make easier on the graders and the people writing the applications.

There's already minmaxing.  The Guidelines are said to be hidden for reasons that are already occurring because they are not guidelines,  they're hard rules that aren't being used as guidelines at all- Guidelines imply a measuring stick from which to scale from, a concept that was even encouraged at one point but keeps falling out of fashion.


It doesn't make for a very fun experience at all,  when rules such as range and speed are held so stringently.    People need to ease up on them quite a lot,  as puts a negative strain on the main reason this site is particularly popular and effect;  Its creative freedoms to make nearly anything you could hope to try to play.    The rules, which aren't guidelines at all at this point,  hold that back a lot with restrictions that aren't merited.  Some are,  some aren't.     


Range and Speed need to be reworked to not be so stifling, though most importantly staff need to be more easy going about how they are applied on a contextual basis.  There's a reason there are courts and judges and not automatic robots that met out written law to the exact specifications, and that is generally to measure context.   


Most the rules are fine,  but those two are the most damning, range and speed that is.    Any low ranked spell would be better off thrown than cast normally,  for both better speed and better range.  Even higher ranked spells sometimes.



It's a great site,  or I wouldn't have been here for so many years, but this has consistently been a thorn in its side for most of those years.   There's really just no reason for it to exist, why does it?     There's nothing good about it,  only some negatives.     

I imagine it'd be pretty liberating to be done with them,  heavily benefiting the majority of the members who remain at D-C and B.


The current ranges would be decent for movement abilities though, which by their nature should be a lot shorter than others and are more inherently based on power than a projectile is with no real world comparison.     The current range rules even apply to AoEs though, which is just crazy.     They're used as a blanket over everything with distance.   Current ranges could remain for AoEs as well though,  maybe a bit of a reduction.  (As with a fixed range and speed system the AoEs current sizes aren't a question anymore.   And I only say that it was crazy due to how limited ranges are presently.)



It's also why Melee is so favored here,  because the rules optimize for it and put ranged casters at a significant disadvantage.   Melee can do so much more damage,  but the general drawback is supposed to be the whole getting up close thing. But when all movement spells travel the same distance as ranged spells,  there's no significant drawback.

I'm not suggesting reducing the range of movement abilities at all,  not from what currently exists.  The ranges are already really short that reducing them from what is possible now would just cripple D-B's.   The scale needs to be broadened,  not lessened.




I believe I made a fairly usable suggestion on range and speed before,  maybe a year ago now,  though I'm sure I've made one long before that one as well.

Snippet:

Ignore damage references,  as it was also paired with a damage overhaul.   Intended for weapons but applies to spells as well.

Rather than range being purely a product of rank,  there exist baselines for types of range.   Rank can then augment that.

I forget the range and speed of spells at each rank but there is an actual max for these. When making a spell that is ranged, make it go as far as you can and they will tell you what you are actually allowed to do. The speed is half of its range in meters per second. Again this makes very little sense but hey in a world where we have pvp rules yet don't support pvp in any way all of this is stupid in general. Magic should honestly not even need to be graded at this point. Since if you really work the rules in your favor a C rank Wizard can still do H rank damage at any point. Again you can do whatever you want when you aren't doing pvp though. So enjoy that thought.

As somebody's character specializes in ranged magic I just want to add my 2 cents and say I agree with everything that has been stated so far. Even if none of the numbers are changed it would make things easier for both the players and mods doing the approvals is all this was spelled out clearly in the magic rules.

I haven't been here long enough to really put an input on the other stuff suggested, I do believe there should be atleast some groundwork for PvP though, but for the main topic at hand I think adding that stuff to the guidelines would help everyone, especially new people, out a lot I hate having to ask for what the max range is for -insert rank here- due to me either getting a new rank or just forgetting.

Well I guess as a newer person I will also add my input. I think adding whatever the rules being used to grade the magic apps would greatly benefit both the applicants and the mods that grade them. When writing up my D rank magic I had no idea what to put for the range and speed. The only reason I was able to put some decent numbers to them without being told to modify for being too much was because I spent a long time going through already approved applications. It also seems the mods spend a lot of time having to say the same things with each app due to these not being stated anywhere, from my observation at least.

This is actually my first site using such statistics in general. Back when I rped on different sites years ago the only rules were basically don't godmode or powerplay so this stuff is quite confusing to me. Having cooldowns and damage numbers I understand but the reasoning behind range and speed goes a little over my head. I am assuming these two statistics are used for pvp purposes or maybe really difficult jobs. I don't mind adding the stuff to my spells for the sake of balance, but I will say I have no clue how to apply it correctly in my posts. I just go back to my old roots of don't be some invincible monster. *Feels dumb*

The thing is, you really don't have to add it in your posts. So on a site with no pvp these numbers are pointless over all.

Mashyuu Kumonosu wrote:The thing is, you really don't have to add it in your posts. So on a site with no pvp these numbers are pointless over all.

Then maybe we should have some more groundwork for PvP, it does still happen on the site it's just mostly dead heck BF and LS are having an event right now that involves PvP. This is one of the things that has irked me a little bit since joining the site as PvP was one of the things I was looking forward to. We need some rules pertaining to PvP enough to allow some creative freedom but still preventing someone from just bullshitting their way to victory and putting just a tiny break on the "noone wants to lose" behavior that has discouraged some from PvP. I'm not saying I have the solution, I don't but I know there is one we just have to find it (maybe I will put in my own suggestion in the future to atleast have something to start with). My point is that there are still plenty of people who want PvP so instead of abandoning it we should have atleast create some foundation to make it work.

Jozuma wrote:

Mashyuu Kumonosu wrote:The thing is, you really don't have to add it in your posts. So on a site with no pvp these numbers are pointless over all.

Then maybe we should have some more groundwork for PvP, it does still happen on the site it's just mostly dead heck BF and LS are having an event right now that involves PvP. This is one of the things that has irked me a little bit since joining the site as PvP was one of the things I was looking forward to. We need some rules pertaining to PvP enough to allow some creative freedom but still preventing someone from just bullshitting their way to victory and putting just a tiny break on the "noone wants to lose" behavior that has discouraged some from PvP. I'm not saying I have the solution, I don't but I know there is one we just have to find it (maybe I will put in my own suggestion in the future to atleast have something to start with). My point is that there are still plenty of people who want PvP so instead of abandoning it we should have atleast create some foundation to make it work.

Since you haven't been around for awhile, I should explain that PvP does not have the greatest history on the site. This is due to the fact that having nearly unlimited creativity and balancing does not go well. The guidelines and numbers you see currently are more for managing the jobs where you go against enemies or when you want a pvp duel with another player if you want that system there. Otherwise its going to be a case of "Know your limits and i'l follow mine."

Now yes, having a PvP system would be nice for more player fighting, but people on here are crafty, and can work around rules or create systems in there own apps that can ignore some limitations(I say this from what I have seen). Not to mention a pvp system would require devoted staff to keep balancing it(which I don't believe they currently can feasibly or without killing themselves muse-wise), and other things that I won't go into since this is not really a topic for this(probably should make your own topic if you want to discuss this).

As for adding travel time and range guidelines for the magic grading process? I wouldn't mind that(though you don't really need to follow those unless you choose too). For distance I like this bit eris brought up(in the spoiler).

bit:

As for speed I had a idea for it, but I can't find it anymore so I don't have anything to contribute for that bit(unless someone knows where to find threads that can't be followed by links).

Projectile speed honestly shouldn't even be a major consideration except for flavor of a spell.   You're not supposed to DODGE arrows or bullets,  you AVOID them,  avoid their path if fire all together.  You don't wait for someone to shoot you then decide to dodge their bullet after seeing it.    
All the speed 'rules' that currently exist do is make the site feel somewhat shallow and comical.    

 I would love to have made a gun mage by now but I cannot bend myself backwards to accept that bullets would travel slower than a person could move away.  Prometheus school of running away from things would actually help someone here.  Walk in the opposite direction,  not even for very long due to the range rules as well,  and you'll just out pace the projectile.



Every generation of staff (So I don't mean to blame current ones, regarding this concept it's practically tradition at this point) however have denied threads like this and avoided the  change people ask for,  so I do not expect this to go anywhere.

weretiger5411 wrote:

Jozuma wrote:

Mashyuu Kumonosu wrote:The thing is, you really don't have to add it in your posts. So on a site with no pvp these numbers are pointless over all.

Then maybe we should have some more groundwork for PvP, it does still happen on the site it's just mostly dead heck BF and LS are having an event right now that involves PvP. This is one of the things that has irked me a little bit since joining the site as PvP was one of the things I was looking forward to. We need some rules pertaining to PvP enough to allow some creative freedom but still preventing someone from just bullshitting their way to victory and putting just a tiny break on the "noone wants to lose" behavior that has discouraged some from PvP. I'm not saying I have the solution, I don't but I know there is one we just have to find it (maybe I will put in my own suggestion in the future to atleast have something to start with). My point is that there are still plenty of people who want PvP so instead of abandoning it we should have atleast create some foundation to make it work.

Since you haven't been around for awhile, I should explain that PvP does not have the greatest history on the site. This is due to the fact that having nearly unlimited creativity and balancing does not go well. The guidelines and numbers you see currently are more for managing the jobs where you go against enemies or when you want a pvp duel with another player if you want that system there. Otherwise its going to be a case of "Know your limits and i'l follow mine."

Now yes, having a PvP system would be nice for more player fighting, but people on here are crafty, and can work around rules or create systems in there own apps that can ignore some limitations(I say this from what I have seen). Not to mention a pvp system would require devoted staff to keep balancing it(which I don't believe they currently can feasibly or without killing themselves muse-wise), and other things that I won't go into since this is not really a topic for this(probably should make your own topic if you want to discuss this).

As for adding travel time and range guidelines for the magic grading process? I wouldn't mind that(though you don't really need to follow those unless you choose too). For distance I like this bit eris brought up(in the spoiler).

bit:

As for speed I had a idea for it, but I can't find it anymore so I don't have anything to contribute for that bit(unless someone knows where to find threads that can't be followed by links).

So a couple things.

PvP is something like WereT said in the quote. Its something crazy hard to balance out because this site is a site based on story and not PvP. The way PvP is handled is those who PvP together can come up with their own rules for that scenario if they want which is stated in the physical body rules on site a bit. Basically think of PvP as a plot device for story on site and not a contest because that is what it really is here.

Now putting range and speed on things was something I worked on as a dev and put up a thread for about but it was never looked at. I made a very similar idea to Eris's idea after talking to her a bit and some others about range and speed needing to be touched on but I am no longer a dev and so they can use the ideas I put up however they want on staff.

In my experience PvP on a site such as this works best if you think of it as more like a WWE match than a UFC fight. The people involved should be trying to tell a story and should be willing to work together out of character to figure out the best way to tell that story. If everybody goes into the battle with the mindset of "I'm going to win, I'm the best, I'm the hero of the story, fuck those other people". Then it turns into the kind of messy pissing contest that makes everybody who reads it feel embarrased. Remember, at the end of the day you're just pretending to be a wizard on the internet.

Filth wrote:In my experience PvP on a site such as this works best if you think of it as more like a WWE match than a UFC fight. The people involved should be trying to tell a story and should be willing to work together out of character to figure out the best way to tell that story. If everybody goes into the battle with the mindset of "I'm going to win, I'm the best, I'm the hero of the story, fuck those other people". Then it turns into the kind of messy pissing contest that makes everybody who reads it feel embarrased. Remember, at the end of the day you're just pretending to be a wizard on the internet.

Actually could not have said it better. Only thing I can add is that we are all trying to have fun here.

The range and the speed has been added!!

https://www.fairytail-rp.com/t16458p75-patches#297531

Please check it! I will lock this and move it to approved!