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    Sacrificing Weapons for Signature Spells

    Almyra Bys
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    Sacrificing Weapons for Signature Spells Empty Sacrificing Weapons for Signature Spells

    Post by Almyra Bys 1st January 2016, 10:05 pm

    So I've been considering my options for making a "pure" mage, i.e. one that uses no items, armor, or weapons, and found that it's really not worth it. Yes, you can sacrifice weapons and armor slots for signature spells, but let's see what this gets you.

    Strong rank weapon/armor - B rank sig spell
    Legendary rank weapon/armor - A rank sig spell
    Artefact rank weapon/armor - S rank sig spell

    But wait doesn't that mean i'm losing a boost to melee attack and two extra spells/abilities for a single spell?

    In a way yes, but you will also receive a single regular spot as follows:

    Strong - 1 C rank slot
    Legendary - 1 B rank slot
    Artefact - 1 A rank slot

    However, trade wisely young mage because a weapon signature spell must be offensive and an armor signature spell must be defensive. Also you can only have one signature spell per slot much like you can only have 1 weapon/armor per slot. Thus you can gain an extra five signature spell for either your primary or secondary magic. Plus an extra spell slot for either your primary or secondary magic.

    Now let's see what a weapon gives you

    Artifact Item - 2 Player-Ranked Effects (Up to S rank)
    Legendary(+) Item - 1 Player ranked effect(UP to S rank) and 1 Player ranked effect(Up to A rank)
    Legendary Item - 2 Player-Ranked Effects (up to A rank)
    Strong(+) Item - 2 Player-Ranked Effect(Up to B rank
    Strong Item - 1 Player-Ranked Effect (up to B rank)
    Weak Item - 1 Player-Ranked Effect (up to C rank)

    So giving up an artifact gives you one S-rank sig spell and one A-rank normal spell, whereas using an artifact gives you two S-rank effects that cost no MP. Weapons give you a damage boost and armor gives you a defense boost.

    Giving up a Legendary slot gives you 1 A rank sig spell and 1 B rank normal spell, whereas a normal legendary item will give you two A rank effects, in addition to the other benefits of a weapon, and plus quality will give you 5% bonus MP.

    The only point where it begins to become actually worth it to give up an item for a signature spell is when you get to normal old strong items (you still get less bang for your buck if you're giving up a strong+ item).

    Shouldn't giving up an item give at least some sort of benefit over choosing to not do so? Because as of now, there's no reason to not just take your weapons and armor and have them just be enchanted rings or amulets that provide their spells. I think that giving up weapon/item/armor slots for items should give you more benefit than not using it, or at least give you the 5% bonus MP you'd get from using a + grade weapon.

    I remember talking to weretiger about this a time ago, and here are his ideas on some other options for giving up weapons/items/armor.

    weretiger5441 wrote:1.Users with magics that are physically based, these also involve some holder magics. Should these kind of magics receive a different perk since maybe the loss of a weapon would not be as great with them, or just leave them be?

    Now regarding ideas for what to do for the perk.

    1. in exchange for giving up on weapons entirely, the mage can gain a "Pure mage" perk similar to how slayers have the slayer perk. This perk allows the user a fourth more increase(25%) in permanent mana based on their rank, two sig spells which one can be used for both primary and secondary(Or just grant them a spell slot per rank on primary excluding H-rank), along with an additional ability regardless if its passive or an active on primary.


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    Sacrificing Weapons for Signature Spells Empty Re: Sacrificing Weapons for Signature Spells

    Post by Kakuma Blackflower 2nd January 2016, 12:17 am

    There are already rules for this.

    Please see Signature spell rules here
    https://www.fairytail-rp.com/t8370-character-perks

    I don't really see that perk being made due to then we would have to make one for melee.


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    Ninetails Derpfox

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    Post by Ninetails Derpfox 2nd January 2016, 1:43 am

    You're missing the point Kakuma... Almyra is saying what I and a fair bit of the community have agreed on, and been over ruled on multiple times...

    Signature spells are not worth the sacrifice.


    Legendary Armour: 1x A Rank + 1x B Rank ability + basically a free barrier + 5% extra base MP if you own a (+) variant + the armour has a damage reducer on it
    Legendary Weapon: 1x A Rank + 1x B Rank ability + bonus melee damage + 5% extra base MP if you own a (+) variant.

    Legendary Signature: 1x A Rank Signature + 1x B Rank spell slot


    So, you're sacrificing bonus damage, extra health, extra MP, and MP-free abilities for... A signature spell slot that has 1 effect, and a lower ranked spell slot that deals less damage and costs MP...
    This is what Almyra is saying... 

    But wait there's more... If you trade an armour, your signature is obligated to be defensive or supportive. If you trade your weapon, your signature is obligated to be offensive only. That's #9 on the summary section for Signature spells for those who care to check.
    BUT, your armour can have offensive abilities and weapons can have defensive abilities if the user wanted... So we're also trading creative freedom.


    To circumvent this signature trade-off, some players just make their weapon a tattoo or something. Good luck destroying that weapon, cause you're not likely to cut off that person's entire chest. There's no rule that says you can't have a tattoo for a weapon, so naturally mods can't tell players they can't do it. 


    NOW, I'm going to address Almyra.
    I'm imagining you're not a PvP person, and that most of your pure mage's spells will be on jobs. During jobs, no-one is 100% bound to the rules. During jobs, the rules on speed, melee damage, spell damage, armour durability, weapon durability, basically ALL numbers are essentially not as important. The only time these numbers actually matter DURING JOBS is if you're role-playing with someone who's higher ranking, and wants to feel immaculately superior to you because they're 3 ranks or so above yours. In which case, that's a toxic player and you should let them be toxic by themselves. 

    In short, during jobs you can stretch the power of your character quite a bit. I've had my alt make 300+ meter long kills with her sniper rifle. A job I did on this account I was C Rank and was 1-shotting B Ranked Rune Knights by means of assassination. I've also had this character single handedly assassinate an entire slaver ship. Naturally I always made sure my kills make sense, but that's beside the point.
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    Post by Shard 2nd January 2016, 1:53 pm

    As a note....I was always under the impression that weapon spells cost MP.

    That is why they used to have to be related to your magic because it is your channeling your magic through the weapon to perform a spell.

    Thus a signature spell has a definite edge there.


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    Post by Ninetails Derpfox 2nd January 2016, 4:31 pm

    No, the signature does not have an edge even if that were true. I would sooner pay MP for a spell that deals damage, causes you to bleed, and restores my MP while you bleed than I would take up a spell that just deals damage... because signatures are really trashy spells unless you cut your own heart out so you can make it so the damage it deals can compensate for how useless the spell is IF the spell deals damage at all.
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    Post by Shard 2nd January 2016, 4:47 pm

    A signature spell has no cooldown for the most part and can be spammed.

    Most weapons are melee.

    If you build a sig spell correctly it has a lot of options.

    Yes its not quite the equivalent of a weapon or armor, but the trade off is a lot fairer then it used to be. Sure perhaps its still not quite equivalent, but it is better.

    I'd say the suggested solution is not the way forward though.
    Perhaps the trade can be added to.


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    Post by Mark Baxter 2nd January 2016, 5:17 pm

    Shard wrote:A signature spell has no cooldown for the most part and can be spammed.

    Most weapons are melee.

    If you build a sig spell correctly it has a lot of options.

    Yes its not quite the equivalent of a weapon or armor, but the trade off is a lot fairer then it used to be. Sure perhaps its still not quite equivalent, but it is better.

    I'd say the suggested solution is not the way forward though.
    Perhaps the trade can be added to.

    That's the problem with signature spells, the rules explicitly state that a signature spell generally has no cooldown, unless a mod decides it's too good and needs a cooldown. But the thing is, in my experience, even the most underwhelming signature spells are forced to have cooldowns. For example, my signature spell only deals 50% C-Rank damage, but I was still forced to add a cooldown of 1 post.


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    Almyra Bys
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    Post by Almyra Bys 2nd January 2016, 6:01 pm

    Shard wrote:A signature spell has no cooldown for the most part and can be spammed.

    Most weapons are melee.

    If you build a sig spell correctly it has a lot of options.

    Yes its not quite the equivalent of a weapon or armor, but the trade off is a lot fairer then it used to be. Sure perhaps its still not quite equivalent, but it is better.

    I'd say the suggested solution is not the way forward though.
    Perhaps the trade can be added to.

    Most signature spells are required to have cooldowns, and honestly, for anything of legendary quality or higher, it's probably better to have two less spammable, but more powerful abilities and a boost to melee damage (or ranged if it's a ranged weapon) which can also be spammed for no cost. Assuming everything you use is + grade, you can also gain a significant amount of extra MP, up to 40% assuming all weapons, armor, and items are of X+ grade (3x5% weapons, 2x5% armor, and 3x5% items.) Correct me if I'm wrong with the amount of each type of item you can get. At the very least, sacrificing a spell slot should give you the 5% bonus MP you could get from using a + grade thing.


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    Post by Ninetails Derpfox 2nd January 2016, 6:04 pm

    Sacrificing Weapons for Signature Spells Hh1s0z10

    All spells that aren't passives, have a minimum duration of Instant. Instant spells, are still duration spells, therefore they cannot have 0 for a cooldown. 

    The only spells I've seen that had a 0 cooldown was:
    My first signature that allowed me to grow a pair of wings and fly
    Enola Gay's first signature that allowed her to turn into dust
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    Post by Mark Baxter 2nd January 2016, 6:41 pm

    Niyol wrote:
    Sacrificing Weapons for Signature Spells Hh1s0z10

    All spells that aren't passives, have a minimum duration of Instant. Instant spells, are still duration spells, therefore they cannot have 0 for a cooldown. 

    The only spells I've seen that had a 0 cooldown was:
    My first signature that allowed me to grow a pair of wings and fly
    Enola Gay's first signature that allowed her to turn into dust

    I have a different interpretation of this. I assumed that having a spell that had an Instant duration counted as not having a duration. I thought it meant that any spell with a duration of 2 and up needed to have a cooldown equal to or greater than the duration.


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    Post by Bass 2nd January 2016, 6:47 pm

    Signature spells are allowed a 0 cooldown. its in the rules.

    However, if they have a duration of say 2 posts then yes they have a cooldown.

    All depends how its done.


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    Post by Mark Baxter 2nd January 2016, 6:48 pm

    Veil Crane wrote:Signature spells are allowed a 0 cooldown. its in the rules.

    However, if they have a duration of say 2 posts then yes they have a cooldown.

    All depends how its done.

    This is what I had interpreted from the rules.


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    Post by FeitanKazeshini 2nd January 2016, 11:36 pm

    Alymra you're missing the point as well and so are a lot of you. PvP is toxic and makes for awful times. Even with the rules we have it is a very dangerous thing to be involved in, and no one should be worried about balancing with it. 
    Still some people like it and that is your thing so have at it.

    Making a pure mage is worth it because you can do all the magic spells. For instance I'm a demon soul takeover mage, and each takeover gives me new magic, or some new ability, and is awesome. You just have to get creative, and if you wanted something that gave you a boost, an attack, and something else making an offensive or a defensive spell could work to that goal. As someone who has traded in their weapon slots before I find it to be grand, and highly profitable. Yes I still have 2 weapons, but those are rarely used for combat, and I still rely heavily upon my magic in tandem with them. 

    All in all you really are only limited to your imagination, and how stingy your mod is being. Some are worse than others it's true, but that doesn't mean that you can't make something amazing.


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    Almyra Bys
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    Post by Almyra Bys 3rd January 2016, 12:13 am

    I've come from forums where there is PvP. Properly managed PvP is really quite fun, actually. The issue is that you have to balance it well for it to be fun. And honestly, it really isn't worth trading in items and weapons right now. You're better off just taking an item and saying it's something like a tattoo or other small trinket. The main issue I have really is that you wind up with less total MP going without items than you do going with items. Going purely magical should at least give you the benefit of having more MP than those who rely on weapons.


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    Post by Rosetta Crawford 3rd January 2016, 3:09 am

    PVP on here has proven...toxic. Its caused more issues than anything else.

    ALso you only get extra MP for (+) grade weapons. So saying you get less MP overall for sig spells seems odd to me.

    Though I admit...getting a bit more MP would be an interesting reward.

    I still find it kinda funny that everyone is like 'you can't be a pure mage with a weapon'. I mean has nobody heard of magic staffs? Wands? Or with armor: Robes.


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    Post by Nemesis 3rd January 2016, 11:15 am

    my biggest issue is how Siggy spells are required to be simple that do only one thing and one thing only. If you ask me that's pretty bland and gets really really old real quick. Siggy spells are supposed to be spells that your character is well known for using or has a defining trait to your character.

    Examples are Natalia has a pure defensive spell that happens to be the strongest defensive spell on site. But it has a massive cooldown and a decent duration, The bigger issue is because of how I designed it, the spell is constantly under threat of being gutted because apparently six wings forming a shield is more that one effect.

    Second is Irina has once again a defense spell which has a decently size duration and cooldown, why do I add durations and cooldowns instead of going with the free cast reset? Well I just find it more fun to have durations and cooldowns. But it's once again threatened to be gutted because apparently a shield made of 7 shields is more than one effect. The lines between multiple effect or one effect is so blurred that just the design of the spell is enough to get it gutted.

    My recommendation to make siggy spells more entertaining is be less harsh on their design perhaps allow them to house minor secondary effects such as the ability to glide through the air with those Six Wings that Natalia has. They make siggy spells feel a bit less underwhelming in general and a bit more feel good that they can actually do something.

    It doesn't solve the problem with how weapons and armor still completely outclass the concept of siggy spells. But it does make siggy spells feel better.


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    Post by Almyra Bys 3rd January 2016, 1:38 pm

    Speed Demon Zack wrote:PVP on here has proven...toxic. Its caused more issues than anything else.

    ALso you only get extra MP for (+) grade weapons. So saying you get less MP overall for sig spells seems odd to me.

    Though I admit...getting a bit more MP would be an interesting reward.

    I still find it kinda funny that everyone is like 'you can't be a pure mage with a weapon'. I mean has nobody heard of magic staffs? Wands? Or with armor: Robes.

    The reason PvP has proven toxic probably because it wasn't well implemented to start off, which lead to things being toxic. Since it was toxic to start off, people thought all PvP is toxic so they never bothered to balance it, since they think it can't be fixed.

    Even if you only get extra MP for + grade weapons, you're still losing out by exchanging weapon slots, since you'd be better off with a + grade weapon that has 2 abilities that cost no mana versus one signature and one normal spell, since the normal spell costs mana, and the signature spell is far more limited than a weapon ability by the rules of signature spells.

    So yeah, overall, someone who puts all their slots into sig spells will have 40% less MP than someone who puts all their slots into + grade weapons, even if they just fill their higher rank slots with strong + (which they can upgrade later). And with regards to "pure" mage, it's pure not in that they only use magical things, but pure in that they rely on nothing other than their own bodies/minds/spirits. Even if the sig spell + normal spell isn't as good as the abilities granted by weapons, exchanging should still allow you to get the additional MP of + items. Perhaps that would be a good way to balance it, honestly. You don't get nearly as good of spells, but you can gain the extra MP you'd get from having a + quality item without having to spend the additional jewels.


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    Sacrificing Weapons for Signature Spells Empty Re: Sacrificing Weapons for Signature Spells

    Post by Shard 3rd January 2016, 3:41 pm

    I really need to get clarification on whether weapon abilities use MP. Logically, to me at least, they should as they are or were at least classed as spells and it doesn't say that they don't elsewhere. So until that point is clarified your point of 'two abilities that cost no MP' only really applies to armor.

    Signature spells can be limited due to their 'singular' effect policy, but a bit of creativity shows they can be very useful. For example, create a signature spell that enhances the damage of one spell per post.

    Of course, tatoos can be used for 'magic weapons', but then you are sacrificing the boost to your offensive power. After all, you aren't going to be hitting people with a tatoo now are you?


    Also, I disagree that a pure mage would not be able to use say magical robes as armor. After all, there is nothing to say that in their plot they didn't originally imbue those robes with magic. So it is their magic they are relying on. Or a staff. Particularly, if magic weapon spells use MP as I think they do. As it is relying on their magical power and not someone elses.

    A pure mage to me is one who doesn't resort to melee combat.


    Still whilst the trade off isn't 100% fair at the moment people will always complain about it. It is a lot fairer then it was. I agree that trading off a (+) grade weapon/armor could provide MP boost though. That makes sense.


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    Sacrificing Weapons for Signature Spells Empty Re: Sacrificing Weapons for Signature Spells

    Post by Almyra Bys 3rd January 2016, 4:32 pm

    It's been confirmed to me several times that items, armor, and weapon spells/abilities do not cost any MP. It's not the person casting a spell with their own magic, but a weapon pre-charged with magic releasing it. It's like a wand or magical item in Dungeons and Dragons: it doesn't take any of your own energy to cast. I've asked this question of multiple staff members many times and the answer has always been that item spells cost nothing to cast. I wouldn't be bringing this up if weapons spells did cost MP, since then a signature spell would actually be a fair tradeoff.

    And true, you can have interesting signature spells, but that doesn't negate the fact that they are still more limited than weapon and item abilities. Creativity aside, they are, by the rules, more limited. It shouldn't come down to the creativity of the user and their willingness to test the rules of signature spells in order to have the tradeoff between sacrificing items for signature spells to be a good tradeoff.


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    Sacrificing Weapons for Signature Spells Empty Re: Sacrificing Weapons for Signature Spells

    Post by Vincent 5th January 2016, 4:25 pm

    Two different kinds of people want to do things two different ways. It doesn't hurt either party that they have different ways of doing things, but the rules by chance just so happen to favor one party.

    The party out of favor can fall within favor if they jump through hoops and compromise on what they want and no one minds.

    So what harm is there is letting them avoid jumping through hoops? It is the same outcome, just less hassle and everyone is happier.

    Simplify the trade-off to something along the lines of "trading x rank weapon gives you x rank signature spells equal in number to those your weapon could have granted you." Would make for a rather solid balance. Then with armors(because they give passives instead of spells right?) simply tweak it to "trading armor gives you passive abilities equal in number to those your armor could have granted you."

    Weapon users have the edge in they still have a sharp object to stab you with, signature spell users have the edge in that their spells are free.

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    Sacrificing Weapons for Signature Spells Empty Re: Sacrificing Weapons for Signature Spells

    Post by Rosetta Crawford 14th January 2016, 5:14 am

    After speaking with admins and getting it confirmed that weapons have their own MP supply (which we will likely define rules on though probably just for PVP) I will be looking at making this a bit fairer.


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    Sacrificing Weapons for Signature Spells Empty Re: Sacrificing Weapons for Signature Spells

    Post by Almyra Bys 14th January 2016, 11:18 am

    Cool beans. I honestly think missing out on the extra MP from + grade weapons is the biggest issue, otherwise it's not too bad.


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    Sacrificing Weapons for Signature Spells Empty Re: Sacrificing Weapons for Signature Spells

    Post by Rosetta Crawford 15th January 2016, 1:08 am

    Old rules:


    New rules idea :

    As an added point i'm wondering if signature spells should do the same damage as your melee + the boost that the weapon would of given you to a melee attack. Particularly as these can be potentially spammed as much as weapon attacks can be.

    I'm also considering allowing a second effect, but this will either cause them to cost MP ( a smaller amount as they are still simple) or have a cooldown


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    Sacrificing Weapons for Signature Spells Empty Re: Sacrificing Weapons for Signature Spells

    Post by Godlike Frederik 15th January 2016, 4:58 am

    Zack wrote:As an added point i'm wondering if signature spells should do the same damage as your melee + the boost that the weapon would of given you to a melee attack.

    if you trade it in then yeah, seems only fair to even that out.

    However, ins't trading in your gear for signature spells creating issues like:

    - higher ranked signatures, simple spell but can practically be spammed until the end of times, as they are 0mp and low to no cooldown? PvP sense its might need to be looked at then. Especially if one has an entire armada of them.

    - sure they cost 0mp, but the trade still seems a bit low for me as the signatures are supposed to be simplified spells. While the weapons are fairly more complex and can do more. Meaning that besides equal damage of the traded weapon. A signature spell should be allowed to be more complex as well, as instead of shooting a simple fireball.

    - Rehashing current signatures might be needed.


    Don't get me wrong, i am all for more signature spells. But as they are supposed to be now, they are just more like abilities who are a bit more complex because you can actually attack someone with them, instead of only being an utility tool. Also aren't signatures spells, meant to be like your signature move? A one of a kind spell that you have mastered and are known for?


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    Sacrificing Weapons for Signature Spells Empty Re: Sacrificing Weapons for Signature Spells

    Post by Rosetta Crawford 15th January 2016, 6:03 am

    Lord Frederik wrote:
    Zack wrote:As an added point i'm wondering if signature spells should do the same damage as your melee + the boost that the weapon would of given you to a melee attack.

    if you trade it in then yeah, seems only fair to even that out.

    However, ins't trading in your gear for signature spells creating issues like:

    - higher ranked signatures, simple spell but can practically be spammed until the end of times, as they are 0mp and low to no cooldown? PvP sense its might need to be looked at then. Especially if one has an entire armada of them.

    - sure they cost 0mp, but the trade still seems a bit low for me as the signatures are supposed to be simplified spells. While the weapons are fairly more complex and can do more. Meaning that besides equal damage of the traded weapon. A signature spell should be allowed to be more complex as well, as instead of shooting a simple fireball.

    - Rehashing current signatures might be needed.


    Don't get me wrong, i am all for more signature spells. But as they are supposed to be now, they are just more like abilities who are a bit more complex because you can actually attack someone with them, instead of only being an utility tool. Also aren't signatures spells, meant to be like your signature move? A one of a kind spell that you have mastered and are known for?

    I've bolded the bit that I want to make a comment on. That is what the idea of 'signature' means to me, but it seems not to be on this. In the case of canon Natsu's 'signature' spell is his fire dragon fist which basically just enhances his meelee with fire power. Nothing more, nothing less. That fits our site's systems.



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