Change of Status Quo

Hey y'all.

I'm here to talk about something that I've been weighing back and forth for about a year now. It started as an inkling but over time, and surprisingly quickly in recent months, has embedded itself in my mind stronger than it did previously. I held off on posting it because I've been on hiatus but given a lot of the recent changes and my beliefs to what influenced a lot of it, I feel like there is no better time to bring it up than now. It is a topic that has been discussed before but hasn't been brought back up recently and frankly, I'm going to be upfront and blunt with my opinions, observations and beliefs in this. I promise no offense to any party whatsoever and I want this to be an open, honest discussion for all of us.

It's time to seriously consider how important it is that our magic have stats in our day-to-day role playing.

Yes, this hot topic again. It's been argued and discussed before and nothing has changed. For a time, that was fine -- people seemed fine with keeping the system as it was without issue. But the last time this was discussed, to my knowledge, in a public setting, it was almost three years ago. That was before the system got tended to, adjusted, fixed and patched. It was before we could go on jobs -- any jobs -- without magic. And unfortunately, through that time, we've seen several staff members come and go that got burned out. Some of that was muse but I think we're seriously disillusioning ourselves to how demanding, stressful and aggravating the process of creating stat magic can be. And that's not only for us members that create it but for the staff members that then need to approve it. Magic with stats abuses us all and requires us to continually adjust rules and stipulations for the sake of balance.

Now this isn't to put down the hard work that has gone into balancing the system. Over the past three years, we've seen plenty of addendums and patches that have cleared up outstanding issues and made a fairly balanced system. It works and it gives a lot so that we, as writers, can craft magics that can be unique, flashy and exciting. The problem I've seen is the fact that it does not get used properly. Our system is put in place so that the numbers have to clash against another set of numbers. As someone that spent five years on another roleplay board that saw PvP as a more important component of story, I understand the logistics of what the system is meant to do.

But here's the problem. This is not a PvP site. I know, I know -- hard to believe. But actually take a minute and think back to all the player versus player threads that have occurred over the past few weeks, then go back months, then go back years. Not a lot -- barely any. And in the few that have happened, many of them were simply story-based combat. A compromise between the writers to use their magics creatively to craft a story rather than slamming numbers against one another and seeing which one was bigger. The idea of reaching a place where the numbers are superior to all over parties is one to strive for on many boards but it doesn't provide any content or fulfillment here. No one fights one another. I know plenty of people have said they would and were always down to have a PvP match but where are those fights? Why haven't they pushed for more combat? The answers can vary and frankly, this isn't a putdown on any one person. I'm sure there are people that want to do PvP but they have hectic work schedules or a busy social life or demands at home that prevent them from dedicating the time. And there is nothing wrong with that, at all.

There is something wrong with putting so much focus on stat-based magic. It isn't viable -- in fact, one might even say it's draining. For years, we've operated with minimal staff members because the very idea of having to memorize the rules around the magic in addition to whatever knowledge they focus on during the day is downright terrifying. I'll admit that it has turned me off to joining staff and I was the admin of a board that was exceptionally PvP heavy, where the stats were so very important.

I can go on for ages but I don't want to clog up this topic with incessant verbiage before other people have even weighed in. So let me start out by saying this -- I do not want to remove the stat system for magic. I believe it should stay, for those circumstances where people do want to slam their numbers against one another. But I think it needs to be reformed into "PvP Magic".

Essentially, this is how it would work. You create a character and get it approved. The next step is making your magic. Rather than being given a choice between numbers and statless, the default is to make statless magic. You create your spells with the flair your want and then put it up for approval. Staff looks over it, makes sure it doesn't have any god-mod or other rule-breaking angles in the wordage and it's approved. Bam, you've done it.

Now let's say you do want to fight someone else and you want it to be a no-holds-barred brawl. The first step is my first suggestion: a new subboard for approvals that is "PvP Fight Approval". Here you outline the people competing in the battle and a reason for the battle. Maybe you talked to someone and they thought their dark mage fighting your legal mage would be a blast. You craft a premise for the battle and present it in the approval forum. A staff member looks at it and decides to approve or deny it -- for this instance, we'll say approve. With that approval, the staff member asks you to go and create your "PvP Magic" in the PvP Magic sub forum.

Here's where you put in your numbers. You go through the rules, craft your spells and then each participant in the battle posts a link to their PvP magics for approval in the PvP Magic Approval sub forum. Here you link to your magic and to the approval for the battle from the staff member. The staff member is then responsible for looking over the magic, making sure it's up to standards and working with the creator to get it approved. Once the magics of the competitors are approved, the battle can commence.

This sounds like a lot of posting in several sub forums but the truth is, we already do that. And with this rather simple change, magics will be easier and quicker to approve. It comes down to just reading the description for the spells to make sure it isn't rule breaking. And it's not like you have to create an entirely new magic if/when you decide to do PvP because you will just be filling in the numbers to the spells you already created. Lineages will still matter because the benefits you get from them still apply to PvP but they also can apply to your statless magic.

Most of us that have been here for a decent amount of time don't even bother with getting magic approvals anymore because the effort and time it takes to slog through the numbers isn't worth it. Why craft the perfect AoE spell when you know you're never going to use it anyways? For a "just in case" scenario? Why not just take the focus off the numbers and let people create magic right from the get go? And then when they decide they want to fight, they have to put in the effort to make sure staff is aware and ready for battles rather than cramping up approval threads for magic for days and waiting days for staff to look over them. It takes the pressure and weight off staff members and it allows members the ability to just create magic without trying to wrap their heads around the numbers. They then can make the decision to look through the numbers themselves for the sake of getting that PvP fill.

Here's the tl;dr section to better present it.

-Statless magic becomes the primary creation method for magic.
-Change stat magic to PvP magic.
   -To PvP, you have to coordinate and get approval for the battle ahead of time.
   -Once staff approves of the setting for the battle, the competitors then go and recreate their magic with numbers.
   -They then get it approved by staff and the battle can commence.

So there's my pitch. Please feel free to pop in and discuss, dissect or even offer alternatives. I simply believe that we need a hard change so that members and staff don't cringe at the very mention of making magic.

Thanks all.

I'll be honest. I don't care for Pvp. I never intend to Pvp. The only reason I am even on that Wizard Saints list is because Pvp was removed as a requirement years ago. From the Pvp threads I've seen when I first joined (yes there were some using numbers due to the positions requiring it) it was a drama filled salt fest that I never wanted to be a part of myself. I've had my fill of that just from the Pvp modes in video games over the years. So if Pvp was the only thing for numbers I might kind of be in agreement that it could be removed. The reason I use numbers in my magic even after statless was added was because I look at it as character building. I like the numbers. I like knowing my characters have improved in power since their creation. I like changing their stats up a bit to make each character differ from another in some way and having numbers to reflect that. This was one of the arguments people used back when this was discussed. This I don't think has changed for some people. Granted many of those people are not here anymore so the majority view could have shifted. I myself am a bit biased since this is the only way of making magic I know and have grown accustomed to. I won't pretend that isn't the case, but I hope I have put that bias aside for the most part to put my own clear thoughts and opinions on this.

I will admit that magic making has become a bit more complex over the years. There is no denying that there is vastly more to do and add to the point that you are regurgitating the entire magic rules pages when making a single spell that isn't completely basic. This is one reason why I don't bother rushing to get my magic graded much anymore. The rules change quite often for a balance that I for years have never considered possible. It still isn't balanced in my eyes. My magic also spans so many posts because of everything you can add to a spell and how many clauses you have to add when the rules page itself should cover that instead of having to put it in every single spell. It gets repetitive and makes magics longer and bigger than they should be. This is a tiring process and even worse when you are nearly complete with edits only to have a patch be released and therefore means your magic is once again not ready for approval.

So, to put it shortly. I get it. I've been here a long time and have gotten used to this process, but I can see why someone might have issues with it, especially if they are new. Same goes for those that grade it. However, if I were staff, it isn't necessarily the long magics or complex rules that would get me and burn me out. Someone with a long magic that has read the rules and knows what they are doing generally has very little edits to be made. It's probably reading the thing and checking for all the clauses that gets tiring. I would also say getting magics to grade made by people that do not understand the rules or have read them would also be tiring and frustrating. I've read the magics. I've read the gradings. I see what staff has had to put up with in the past when it comes to that.

With all that I have seen over the years I can really see where this suggestion is coming from. People generally avoid Pvp now. Well, aside from that Pvp brawler's thing that I think Leah tried to start some time ago. People signed up for it but I have no clue why it never went anywhere. So that right there shows that there was some interest in Pvp. I also know people have wanted a grand tournament like in the show before. Again, there was interest shown, but for some reason died down or never happened. These examples alone can be used to show the little pvp that occurs here. I can see why your suggestion would make sense due to this except for the fact I don't think it's needed at all. People can already choose whether to make a stat based magic or not. So really the memberbase itself shouldn't be tired or burnt out on making a stat based magic if they don't even have to. I admittedly would be quite upset if I had to change my magic again to be statless just to make it easier on people that already had the option to not make a stat based magic in the first place.

Now for the part that actually matters to me and that is how it affects staff. This would indeed make things a bit easier on them and I am sure anyone except math nuts would praise less math to do and check over. However, I think one important thing here is that we have a lot of new and inexperienced staff members. They can't really learn the ways of grading stat based magic properly if they can't get their hands on anything to grade that way. If it were to go the way of there being a separate magic subfourm for when a pvp fight is to happen I expect a magic to be quickly graded and the one doing it to know what they are doing. This can't happen if they do not get practice doing it. Not only that but if there are enough active staff members that do their part then no one is going to get swamped with gradings. At one point this site had 4 admins and 7 mod members. My proposed solution to decrease staff burnout is easy. Increase staff to cover the load to prevent one or two people from doing everything.

At the end of this, as much as I would like to agree and applaud a change, I just think this suggestion is a very unnecessary step to take. If someone wants to have a pvp ready magic, let them make it as they can already do. Making a statless magic to fit this new suggested change would be a waste of time to me at this point, and maybe others. Easy on a new character, yes, but zero point to do on one that has existed for years. And before it is said, yes, my characters are up to date on their magics except for the latest patch changes (which is why it was never submitted for grading) and the stuff I wanted to do for Samira's second magic. Did it take a while? Yes, but it was because I was lazy and got tired of constant magic changes for a balance that I believe will never exist due to many reasons and not just the magic rules themselves, not because of pure burnout.

As I typed all of that I had another thought. Magic isn't the only thing using stats. Equipment uses it too. Some normal and some that people have paid for in IOTM, with real money even. Wouldn't these need to be changed as well? I think it would be strange to remove the stats from the magic but keep it on the equipment and pets. I also think it's too late in this site's life to force a change like this. We have a choice already. Let people make it.

Yes, the magic system is really complex, and I'm not gonna lie, fear grips my heart anytime I stand on the threshold of magic creation, because the stupid perfectionist that I am must create stat magic, because reasons. But Samira's point is very profound as well; the stat system is already so deeply ingrained into the works. Still, I favor a system that is less focused on PvP, as almost always, RPers prefer to agree with each other on what happens in the battle (this actually improves cooperation between site members, as opposed to the numbers game). What I would opine is that things may be left as they are, but stats should not be necessary for rewards (unlike in the last event in which stat usage gave an extra reward). This way, no one will be scared to make statless magic, unless they want to focus on PvP.

Gonna chime in as well just to emphasize my own thoughts on this. I promise I'll try to keep myself concise rather than get into filibuster mode like I usually do.

Just a couple points I want to make. First, I want to stress that the idea behind this is not to redact any stat based magics or items that have already been made. It would literally make zero sense to take stat stuff that's already been made and require it to be altered to statless. Anything already made would presumably be grandfathered into already being stat based and just kept as is (with exception of course of if something needs to be updated to current rules).

My main concern, in line with Mythal's (big surprise, I know) is that we have been able to sit back and watch the steady downward spiral of the current system and how exhaustively demanding it is on staff to the point where it has been a huge factor of straight up murdering the muses staff members have for the site. When we've talked to people who have stepped down from staff, their number one reason for doing so was the sheer work load because this site, as wonderful as it is, is bafflingly micromanaged to an extent that it really doesn't need to be. Not only that, but to an extent where it's often detrimental to the community.

I'm a huge proponent of PVP. I'm one of the few people I know of currently on the site that has actively engaged in PVP on the site over the last couple years, both stat based and statless. I love the stat system, and while I agree with Samira that it definitely still needs some work, the previous admin team put a TON of effort into making it so much better than it used to be, and I would never want to discredit that or erase any of it. However, the fact of the matter is that it's just asinine to cling to it as a mechanic that all members strive to do, and I don't think it's fair to keep demanding that staff be constantly slogged down with excessive grading that 95% of the community will never use, just because people like the satisfaction of seeing all the numbers.

No matter what direction we decide to go, I think it's imperative for the future health and stability of staff -- and thus the site -- that we make some kind of change here. We have to not just acknowledge how demanding the gradings are but also find some way to come together as a community to change it so we don't keep going down a perpetual road of great staff members getting burned out. I think Sara's suggestion to at least rearrange some of the magic description to put more emphasis on statless before stats will help, but it also comes down to the rest of us to be willing to take that step to make statless the norm for all future magics, including ourselves.

I also don't feel that putting more effort on statless means that everything has to be statless. Even if we ask that magic focus more on statless, we could (and should) continue to do stats for items and lineages. The Dev team will certainly still be churning out stat based items once we get enough people to start making items again, and we should absolutely make sure that people haven't wasted money or jewels on items they have purchased in the past. Plus, to address Samira's extremely valid concern (one that I also shared and was glad she mentioned) keeping stats as the norm for items and lineages will still provide ample training opportunities for new staff members that need to make sure they know what they are doing. Items and lineages don't have nearly as much content in them as magic applications do, and frankly out of everything staff grades I think magic takes the longest by far. So if we could even just focus on reigning back on that one area a bit, that would help tremendously and would be a huge relief to staff's work load, allowing them to get things graded more quickly and efficiently.

Hey yuh, so I've only been back for like less than a day, but as a former mod who operated during this era of the FTRP magic system, the magic/items grading is absolutely hellish and frankly keeping up with it was stressful as heck and absolutely played a role in my losing muse for the site. However, the stats system is also one of the aspects of FTRP that I was drawn to, and that many of the people I've known throughout my time rping here have been drawn to.

So yes, I absolutely do think there needs to be change to like, keep the staff alive lmao, while keeping those aspects of the stat system that are so beloved. Whether this change be a stronger emphasis on statless magic like Sara suggested, or a reworking of the magic rules so you don't have to include like hundreds of clauses per spell, I would absolutely love to see some kind of change in this area.

(Hell, even just encouraging the option to write "maximum value" for stat numbers on magics would be absolutely amazing and I would have loved the hell out of that both while grading and creating magics.)

ivyleaf33 wrote:(Hell, even just encouraging the option to write "maximum value" for stat numbers on magics would be absolutely amazing and I would have loved the hell out of that both while grading and creating magics.)

OKAY BUT CAN WE DISCUSS THIS FOR A MINUTE BECAUSE I ACTUALLY THINK THIS IS GENIUS.

This legit is the perfect compromise of making sure everyone has graded and approved stat magic without having to slow the grading process down by actively laying out the numbers. And we already know it works because this is exactly what we already do with IotM items. If we did something like this, then legit the only time anyone in staff would have to dig deep into the numbers is if there is a dispute between members in an active stat based PVP thread.

And we can make it as simple as updating the base magic template so that it already includes the appropriate verbiage, and all members would have to do is fill in the rank of the spell, and thus all numbers therein will be tied back to whatever rank the spell is approved at. For instance:


   Name:
   Rank:
   MP Cost:
   Category:
   Type:
   Damage:
   Range:
   Speed:
   Duration:
   Downside:
   Description:

This is the current base template for caster type spells for people to fill out in their magic. We could update this template to just be...


   Name:
   Rank:
   MP Cost: Max Rank MP
   Category:
   Type:
   Damage: Max Rank Damage
   Range: Max Rank Range
   Speed: Max Rank Speed
   Duration: Max Rank Duration
   Downside:
   Description:

This acknowledges the stats but save members and staff the hassle of figuring all the numbers for grading/approval purposes. And these areas could also be edited slightly to accommodate for downsides and effects, such as someone wanting to trade 50% range for 50% speed could just put

   Range: Max Rank Range -50%
   Speed: Max Rank Speed +50%
   Duration: Max Rank Duration
   Downside: Sacrificing 50% range for +50% speed

It's not perfect. Some things would still need to be written out by members, such as if they have a buff effect or something, but this would save a LOT of time and stress without sacrificing all the hard work former admins put into fixing up the current system, and people can still have their stats technically approved and ready to go for PVP and stat events. It would also make upgrading spells HELLA easy; just update the spell rank, maybe add a couple effects if applicable, and boom done.

Serilda Sinclair wrote:

ivyleaf33 wrote:(Hell, even just encouraging the option to write "maximum value" for stat numbers on magics would be absolutely amazing and I would have loved the hell out of that both while grading and creating magics.)

OKAY BUT CAN WE DISCUSS THIS FOR A MINUTE BECAUSE I ACTUALLY THINK THIS IS GENIUS.

This legit is the perfect compromise of making sure everyone has graded and approved stat magic without having to slow the grading process down by actively laying out the numbers. And we already know it works because this is exactly what we already do with IotM items. If we did something like this, then legit the only time anyone in staff would have to dig deep into the numbers is if there is a dispute between members in an active stat based PVP thread.

And we can make it as simple as updating the base magic template so that it already includes the appropriate verbiage, and all members would have to do is fill in the rank of the spell, and thus all numbers therein will be tied back to whatever rank the spell is approved at. For instance:


   Name:
   Rank:
   MP Cost:
   Category:
   Type:
   Damage:
   Range:
   Speed:
   Duration:
   Downside:
   Description:

This is the current base template for caster type spells for people to fill out in their magic. We could update this template to just be...


   Name:
   Rank:
   MP Cost: Max Rank MP
   Category:
   Type:
   Damage: Max Rank Damage
   Range: Max Rank Range
   Speed: Max Rank Speed
   Duration: Max Rank Duration
   Downside:
   Description:

This acknowledges the stats but save members and staff the hassle of figuring all the numbers for grading/approval purposes. And these areas could also be edited slightly to accommodate for downsides and effects, such as someone wanting to trade 50% range for 50% speed could just put

   Range: Max Rank Range -50%
   Speed: Max Rank Speed +50%
   Duration: Max Rank Duration
   Downside: Sacrificing 50% range for +50% speed

It's not perfect. Some things would still need to be written out by members, such as if they have a buff effect or something, but this would save a LOT of time and stress without sacrificing all the hard work former admins put into fixing up the current system, and people can still have their stats technically approved and ready to go for PVP and stat events. It would also make upgrading spells HELLA easy; just update the spell rank, maybe add a couple effects if applicable, and boom done.

this is sexy as hell and ily

I don't have much to add since everyone has put in excellent points, arguments, and suggestions. Fraag even reminded me that the stats are not only used in pvp but some people do use it in their normal pve threads as well. That event being one such example where many people did actually use the stat version. I don't know if there will be anymore events like that in the future, but it is something to think about if such a drastic change is going to be made. I do also agree with Fraag that there should be no difference in rewards. I thought that was to be the case when statless was first written into the rules so no one would feel forced into stats, but this event changed that for some reason. I'm not in main chat so maybe the reasoning was talked about there at the time.

I am for Saraphina's suggestion of making it more known that statless is an option for people. I am also for Ivy's suggestions. Many people already do the "maximum value" suggestion even outside of IOTM. They have for years so this wouldn't be a huge change. I don't think it'll save a lot of time since, for me, when writing the magic it isn't the numbers that slow me down. I at one point had it all memorized. So, I am not sure how much time it'll save for other members writing it or a staff member that would have grown accustomed to seeing these numbers all the time anyway. If you think it'll help though then I don't mind this being the new encouraged norm.

One thing I want to mention again, since Ivy did also bring it up as well, are the multiple clauses. Now these have just kept getting more and more ridiculous over the years. I think Negation alone now has 4 clauses that have to be written into every spell that has one. Doing something about these I think would save even more time than just turning the numbers into "maximum value". Obviously don't remove them from the rules. They're needed. Just don't make people have to write it into every spell. It's in the rulebook. Everyone knows how these spells and effects operate already. We aren't going to forget just because we don't have to write it ten thousand times as if we are children having to write one sentence repeatedly on the chalkboard as punishment. Removing the necessity for writing these every time makes it easier for both members writing the spell, and staff that are having to check it.

Samira Nassar wrote:One thing I want to mention again, since Ivy did also bring it up as well, are the multiple clauses. Now these have just kept getting more and more ridiculous over the years. I think Negation alone now has 4 clauses that have to be written into every spell that has one. Doing something about these I think would save even more time than just turning the numbers into "maximum value". Obviously don't remove them from the rules. They're needed. Just don't make people have to write it into every spell. It's in the rulebook. Everyone knows how these spells and effects operate already. We aren't going to forget just because we don't have to write it ten thousand times as if we are children having to write one sentence repeatedly on the chalkboard as punishment. Removing the necessity for writing these every time makes it easier for both members writing the spell, and staff that are having to check it.

A great idea, in my opinion. The multiple clauses can be on a "terms and conditions apply" basis, so, if for instance, someone is making a negation spell, and they put 'Negation' as one of the spell's properties, then it falls to whoever is interested to read the rules on Negation, to know what is, and what is not allowed, in the spell. So we all just assume, without the spell maker having to write all the clauses, that since it's a negation spell, the spell can only negate another spell or effect of its rank or below, it can only be used once per post, vodka is poisonous to unicornsand so on and so forth.

So I've read through all these suggestions, and while we're slowly building up a staff team again, I wholeheartedly dig all your inputs - especially the ideas that we know we can start out with; altering the templates for Magic as well as toning down on 'effect clauses' in the spell descriptions when said effects are being used (I've fell victim to their traps myself once or twice thanks to phrasing, even though it already is explained thoroughly enough in the Magic Rules).

Rethinking it again right now, the clauses can definitely just disappear if you ask me, but as Sami did mention, our newer staff members do still need practice in grading stat-based applications. Since it's strongly argued that Equipment and IOTM are generally easier to grade even with the numbers and all, I'd strongly desire that we still make a separate PvP section for them to stay in (that way, newbies are less likely to stumble upon Equipment and wanting to make stat-based items, since in the end, it's unnecessary outside of PvP just like stat-based Magic).

That way, Magic grading will likely be more drawn to us thanks to the absence of numbers (so we can fully focus on what's generally the more important parts of Magic and spells; our typos, attempts at making some ridiculous trap like a 10k MP cost Spell to prevent anyone from negating it etc. etc.). I want to look through the Magic & Spell Rules again, especially the Effects part, to convince myself that nothing extra is needed to be mentioned in the Spell descriptions themselves (although I have full faith in that the previous Admins made sure of that, this is also a chance for me to work a little more as self-proclaimed Head Mod trololol). I will talk more with the other staff members about this, see how we can split the work up and if I'm missing anything.

Okay, so TL;DR, I agree with it all, I wanna work on it with Staff, I definitely think this'll help us out a lot, especially for Saradmin :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD (no clue what else needs to be said, plz pinch me if I overlooked something, I always respond with a moan)

Ima keep this short and simple so I can keep my own thoughts on this matter coherent lmao.

I agree with most of the points that have been made in this thread. I think it would be good to place a big emphasis on statless magic and encourage people to use it for their everyday RP. That said, as Samira has also touched on, I appreciate Stat magic not just for PvP purposes, but as a tangible quantifier for a character's strengths and weaknesses, their progress, and, to put it in RPG terms, something like their specs or their build, I suppose. It feels fun crafting a character that is unique in its focus and capabilities when you have the numbers to back it up. Not just that, but I feel like numbers would be necessary for certain plot-focusses side-wide scenarios and events where a lot of people may come together to prevent individuals with an acute case of main character syndrome from pulling out their statless god magic and launching a nuke fireball that murders the event boss in one hit just cause, and I feel like preserving the integrity of the magic system simply for that is already worthwhile in itself. If such a feat is performed, it should be reflected in a character's inherent powers, strengths, and abilities. Not only that, but I think that taking the time to improve your character's numbers should be rewarded with a feeling of objectively determined strengths, weaknesses, powers, spells, downsides, and everything else there might be to it.

It isn't perfect, certainly, but I think we are always open to constructive feedback and criticism and are willing to make changes to balance it. As mentioned, this can be both help and hindrance, especially to people trying to keep up to date with all the rebalancing and shit. At the same time, I'll be honest and say that I wouldn't really know how to address that when you have a system that needs improving due to its inherent balances, as mentioned. Can't have a balanced magic system and no need to update your magic at all if you wanna keep it in full accordance with the rules, so if there are any suggestions in regards to the rules or this problem itself, by all means, let's talk about it.

Moving on, I agree that having to mention effect stipulations constantly is a real pain in the ass. It's sort of a vestige with the original intent being that users make sure to internalize and understand the limitations of certain effects before using them, but I think everyone gets it, and if they are misused it's easily corrected. I agree that we should get rid of that and be more chill with it in the context of grading.

All in all, I think I agree with the fact that, in essence, the site already allows people to decide between a plot focus by building statless magic or a PvP / tangible numbers focus by creating stat magic, so I would say that there isn't too much restructuring that should be necessary. I do, however, think that a much heavier emphasis should be placed on statless magic and its implementation as an everyday occurrence into the framework that is FTRP solely based on the fact that stats are really hardly ever used in 90% of roleplay scenarios. This should be reflected in the rules and templates of the site as well as the minds of the members roleplaying here. As mentioned before, I am of the firm belief that numbers are a necessity in a small number of scenarios, but as always I am open to suggestions and ideas to deal with that and work around it if possible and feasible. Streamlining the magic creation process and eliminating unnecessary clutter, whether someone is creating their statless or stat magic, is also a pretty good idea in my book.

Guess that wasn't as short and sweet as intended, but uh, yeah, that's what I think. I would really like to talk about this more and see what else people had in mind for this. Really good points and suggestions made in here, so let's keep em comin'.

I haven't updated my magic for literally five years. I feel like this in itself is a worthwhile addition to this thread.

Of course, I do have to point out that me not updating my magic hasn't actually stopped me from RPing quite a bit and doing jobs and exams and events.

That said it would be an improvement if the site changed how stat magic is presented. As proposed by others, it'd be a significant improvement if the rules and the overall atmosphere of the site presented statless magic as the default, with stat magic being for math nuts who want to have the biggest numbers and use objective measurements to watch their characters grow.

Throughout the years, if there's anything which has caused staff members to become overburdened and burned out it's definitely all the damn grading. Especially since if someone were to go all out with maximizing their potential they'd be able to drag like 20+ items and three magics which have 50+ spells combined into any single thread. Which definitely helps with feeling powerful, but I can't really blame staff for looking at walls of stuff which has to be graded and be overcome by despair and exhaustion.

And personally I've tried to update my stuff, but every time I sit down for it I get overcome by this overwhelming urge to do literally anything else because anything else is less of a pain.

So yeah, overall I'd say that the rules need to be rewritten a bit so the message for everyone who reads them is "For the most part we use statless magic so people can have fun writing their adventures, but if you want we've got rules for stats as well, which could be useful for events and PvP."

As for stats helping in certain scenarios... Yes and no. I'm reminded of an anecdote of an event that happened years ago called Rising Tides. The boss got one-shot by a B-Rank character who had managed to exploit the buff rules in such a way that they could launch an attack which dealt damage equivalent to 42x the base damage of an H-Rank spell, or something along those lines. At the time this was entirely according to the stat rules. Of course, such an occurrence requires the rules to have loopholes which can be exploited, but my point is more that while rules can prevent certain problems they're not flawless. In fact, if someone manages to achieve such a feat while following the rules to the letter they're probably more inclined to argue back if staff tells them they can't do that, with other people backing them up, which causes drama, so in a way rules can cause problems as well.

With statless magic if someone tries to pull blatant bullshit during an event it's, in a way, easier for staff to bap them on the head and kindly point out that such behaviour makes the event less fun for the rest. Not everyone might listen, but the majority of the people on this site are adults or near-adults who can be trusted to be reasonable if given the chance, and if someone insists on being obstinate there are ways to deal with that.

I am late to the party and the other participants in this thread have already made a lot of good points, so I will not rehash those too much. Instead, please allow me to give a few anecdotes from my early days of FTRP membership up to the present. Unlike the walls of text that compose my posts, I will try and keep this as brief as I can. I also speak only for myself.

When I started out on FTRP over three years ago, the stat system was a big draw. Seeing tangible numbers that clearly marked my character's strength and progression was gratifying. I liked to see my characters go from novices who barely knew what their magic could do to veteran mages who had mastered their magic to walking demigoddesses who could take on almost anything. All of this was backed by numbers that were tangible, on paper, and visible for all to see.

I also liked making spells for them because as my characters grew in rank and power their spells got the increased numbers to match, meaning that as time passed my characters went from slinging basic spells to being able to generate tornadoes for crowd control/fire magic beams that can punch through armor and magic shields/briefly assume the image of death itself for a powerful attack. When my characters cast high-rank spells (S, S+, H, H+) I got the sense that the opponent was in for a world of hurt if the spell hit because there were suitably high numbers to go with the spell description. That was a big selling point for me that made leveling characters fun.

When the stat system was combined with the freedom of character creation, spell creation, and character plots (within the rules), I knew that FTRP was going to be a lot of fun. Three years later I am still active and still progressing my characters. It is safe to say that I plan on being here for a long time.

With that being said, I will repeat a very good point some of my colleagues have made earlier. Since I have three characters with two magics each (and a fourth in the archives with a single magic), I feel that their point is a fair and accurate one.

Sometimes stat magic can be daunting to make.

I have Leona's Wind Summon Magic in the WIP thread and try to muster the will to revise it, but half the time it just does not happen. The other half I get a brief burst of motivation before giving up on the venture once I look at what all must be done. I will revise it and get it approved one day.

To be honest, I use statless magic for virtually all of my threads. I have used it for every event my characters have been in and I am using it for the current Leona Vs. Odhran thread. The only time I remember using PvP stats was when Leona dueled against Aven Alveron in the Fairy Festival thread over two years ago, if not three by this point.

The short version of everything in the two preceding paragraphs and the sentence above it?

I would not mind a greater emphasis on Statless magic.

Everyone who has posted on this thread before me has made good points like how some people like to use numbers as a tangible means of tracking progression and how making Statless magic "the norm" would ease the burden on staff and players alike. I agree with those points. However, I have a couple of questions concerning what would happen if Statless magic became the new norm.

How would people who want to do Stat PvP keep up with their magic?

Would there be a separate thread of the forum designated for the Stats-oriented version of someone's magic (kind of like we have WIP Magic, Approved Magic, and Archived Magic) in case they do Stat PvP so that all they would have to do is bring the PvP version of their magic up in a separate browser tab, then copy and paste the relevant spells/Unique Abilites/etc. into a thread?

With that being said, I will end my post here before I write even more than I intended.

Thank you for attending my Theodore Lecture.