Fairy Tail RP

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

• Patch Notes •                 • New User Guide •                • Guild Information •

    Spellcasting Encouragement

    Eris
    Eris

    Lich of hell


    Lich of hell

    Moderator- Developer/GFX Artist- Regular VIP Status- Gain An Artifact- Quality Badge Level 1- Quality Badge Level 2- Quality Badge Level 3- Horseman- 11 Sinner- God Of Ishgar- Ten Wizard Saint Member- Guild Master- God Slayer- Demon Slayer- Dragon Slayer- Legal Guild Ace- H-Rank- S-Rank- Richie Rich- Rich- Veteran Level 3- Veteran Level 2- Veteran Level 1- Magic Application Approved!- Obtain A Secondary Magic!- Get A Pet!- Character Application Approved!- Complete Your First Job!- Obtain A Lineage!- Join A Faction!- Senior [500]- Player 
    Lineage : Devil's Conquest
    Position : None
    Posts : 1471
    Guild : Grim Heresy [GM]
    Cosmic Coins : 5
    Dungeon Tokens : 0
    Experience : 0

    Character Sheet
    First Skill: Sunset Eclipse - The Sandstorm GS
    Second Skill: Titan Eclipse • Devil Pact
    Third Skill:

    Spellcasting Encouragement Empty Spellcasting Encouragement

    Post by Eris 10th March 2014, 1:00 pm

    I was reading the cooldown reduction notice in the update log once again just for reference,  and I noticed something which lead to other thoughts;  the cooldowns don't look different on lower ranks while higher rank spells have very noticeable or drastically lowered cooldowns.  

    This lead to thoughts on why low ranking spells need such cooldowns anyway,   and as it is...  It's hard to feel all that magical on this site.    It's more of a game of keeping track of cooldowns than it is a game of casting spells.


    A simple addition to the cooldown reductions would be to make it more dynamic.   For every rank you progress,  the spells of lesser ranks drop by 1.   This simple change would encourage more spellcasting instead of pushing people to use weapons or fists when not everyone would realistically use those as an option,  since they are mages and mages shouldn't always have to resort to brute methods.    

    I don't feel much motivation at all to use most low ranked abilities,   and whats more is that I can't take low ranked spells seriously.   They're all more akin to little tools on a toolbelt,  or things to give the character an edge in other ways in specific situations and the like.   They aren't a significant threat to anyone on their same power level,  meanwhile those of lower levels have more pressing matters to worry about than spells of their own general level being cast at them.

    But if you could actually utilize these low ranked spells as effectively as a skilled mage should,  then there wouldn't be a reason not to use them as a common aspect of your character.   If you can blow up fortresses and small towns,   or even just that orphanage over there,   why can't you toss a couple sparks without having to wait until you can do it again when you obviously have more than enough power to have mastered that simple little trick by now?

    To put this better in perspective, this isn't something for the high ranking characters but everyone. That weak spell you made as a D-rank spell that only has a 1 post cooldown would become your freely available basic attack so long as you have the mana to cast it.
    Or that more normal powered D-rank spell with the 3 post cooldown would become likewise once you hit A-rank.

    Sure, S and H-ranks would not have the limitation of mana when casting these now cooldown-less low rank spells, but they would do far more damage in dozens of other ways many of which wouldn't even cost them anything. A mundane punch from an S-rank mage would make free D-rank spells seem like nothing. Because at those ranks the D-rank spells would only be for harassment, or non-lethal approaches to situations.

    I just think it'd be a significant improvement towards making characters feel more like the mages they are supposed to be.


    _____________________________________________________________________________________

    Spellcasting Encouragement NvVyM98

    Spellcasting Encouragement CkggyrF

    Deception | Despair | Domination
    H 1 S 7 A 7+1 B 8+1 C 9 D 11
    d a m n a t i o n
    ~ Lady of Midnight ~
    ~ Lady of Midnight ~

    Endless Abyss


    Endless Abyss

    Moderator- God Slayer- Dragon Slayer- H-Rank- S-Rank- A-Rank- Rich- Veteran Level 1- Senior [500]- Novice [250]- 1 Year Anniversary- Player 
    Lineage : Kohl's Plague
    Position : None
    Posts : 591
    Guild : Black Rose
    Cosmic Coins : 0
    Dungeon Tokens : 0
    Age : 26
    Mentor : The Stars
    Experience : 0

    Character Sheet
    First Skill: Cosmic Magic
    Second Skill:
    Third Skill:

    Spellcasting Encouragement Empty Re: Spellcasting Encouragement

    Post by ~ Lady of Midnight ~ 10th March 2014, 1:09 pm

    I'm kinda confused. Do you mean to up the power of lower ranked spells according to the user's rank? As for the rest of your suggestion, I agree completely.


    _____________________________________________________________________________________

    Rosetta Crawford
    Rosetta Crawford

    Administrator- Moderator- Developer/GFX Artist- Regular VIP Status- VIP- Gain An Artifact- Quality Badge Level 1- Quality Badge Level 2- Quality Badge Level 3- God Of Ishgar- Ten Wizard Saint Member- Guild Master- Demon Slayer- Legal Guild Ace- H-Rank- S-Rank- A-Rank- Veteran Level 2- Veteran Level 1- Magic Application Approved!- Obtain A Secondary Magic!- Character Application Approved!- Complete Your First Job!- Obtain A Lineage!- Join A Faction!- Grand Master [2000]- Master [1000]- Senior [500]- Novice [250]- X-Mas Event Participant- Hero- Villain- 1 Year Anniversary- Player 
    Lineage : Embodiment of the 13th
    Position : None
    Posts : 3499
    Guild : Blue Pegasus
    Cosmic Coins : 0
    Dungeon Tokens : 0
    Mentor : Sky Emperor Shangdi
    Experience : 367,824.5

    Character Sheet
    First Skill: Ten No Kichi
    Second Skill:
    Third Skill:

    Spellcasting Encouragement Empty Re: Spellcasting Encouragement

    Post by Rosetta Crawford 10th March 2014, 2:29 pm

    What's she basically saying is: When you rank up your lower ranked spells need less time to cooldown.

    So say i'm a d rank mage...i have a 3 post cooldown on my D rank spell.

    When I get C rank the cooldown of that spell would reduce to 2.

    When I get B rank the cooldown would reduce to 1.

    When I get A rank the cooldown would become 0 so I could use say once it every post.

    When I get S rank I could use it maybe twice a post

    When I get H rank I could use it three times a post.
    --------------------------
    Well, the S and H bit was me just speculating, but I believe that's the general gist right siren?

    ------------------------
    I for once agree with you Siren. I've been thinking something similar for a while. I feel cooldowns limit what you can do and force physical which doesn't work for a lot of characters.


    _____________________________________________________________________________________

    Spellcasting Encouragement Zack2_by_gramcrackers-d8ker96

    Spellcasting Encouragement Zack_by_ravenart5-d8j23c0

    Spellcasting Encouragement Zackrose_zpse9a22d85
    Current missions(4/6):  get the squid A, King of Fighters(S), Village Protection(A), Repair the House(D)
    Eris
    Eris

    Lich of hell


    Lich of hell

    Moderator- Developer/GFX Artist- Regular VIP Status- Gain An Artifact- Quality Badge Level 1- Quality Badge Level 2- Quality Badge Level 3- Horseman- 11 Sinner- God Of Ishgar- Ten Wizard Saint Member- Guild Master- God Slayer- Demon Slayer- Dragon Slayer- Legal Guild Ace- H-Rank- S-Rank- Richie Rich- Rich- Veteran Level 3- Veteran Level 2- Veteran Level 1- Magic Application Approved!- Obtain A Secondary Magic!- Get A Pet!- Character Application Approved!- Complete Your First Job!- Obtain A Lineage!- Join A Faction!- Senior [500]- Player 
    Lineage : Devil's Conquest
    Position : None
    Posts : 1471
    Guild : Grim Heresy [GM]
    Cosmic Coins : 5
    Dungeon Tokens : 0
    Experience : 0

    Character Sheet
    First Skill: Sunset Eclipse - The Sandstorm GS
    Second Skill: Titan Eclipse • Devil Pact
    Third Skill:

    Spellcasting Encouragement Empty Re: Spellcasting Encouragement

    Post by Eris 10th March 2014, 2:50 pm

    With a cooldown of 0,  the idea is that it is an ability freely available to you.    So you could actually use it more consistently as you would any other weapon.    Your magic is your weapon,  your tool,  and a significant part of who the character is.  

    Whats more,  as the character grows in rank they grow in skill, power,  and overall capability.   It seems a little silly that they'd still have to wait so long between casting their tricks,  when said tricks mean little to them.    

    By increasing the availability of their low ranked spells,  high ranked characters have more options for operating on lower levels and in using their magic itself rather than using items or fists despite their capacity for magic.
    The impact this would have is more in the enjoyment of playing and the IC support to help the character feel more magical,   while having minimal impact on the overall threat of the character (Since being able to spam D-ranks at, for example,  H-rank,   is a negligible point.  Especially if all your other viable opponents would have the same opportunity).


    Say for example you have a Bullet type magic.    All your D-C-rank spells are on cooldown,  but the time isn't right to use a more powerful spell.   You're forced to resort to a weapon to lay down suppressing fire instead of your own lower ranked bullet spells as should be the case.
    There are ways around that to one extent or another,  but it is a perfectly possible scenario and just a cheesy example off the top of my head.



    So I'll use you as an example for the full effect:
    Being S-rank,  your D-rank spells would be at -4/3 (for No cooldown),   C-rank would be at -3/3 (No cooldown), B-rank -2/4, and A-rank -1/5.  The importance of this dynamic nature is to keep high ranked spells with higher cooldowns,  balancing the character better around their own rank.   All D-ranks would still have the normal D-rank cooldown.  But then they soon grow out of it.   Meanwhile this effect is also less useful on higher ranked spells even if we had double the ranks we do now,  since the cooldown of the spells still increase even as the cooldowns for lower ranked spells decrease.


    _____________________________________________________________________________________

    Spellcasting Encouragement NvVyM98

    Spellcasting Encouragement CkggyrF

    Deception | Despair | Domination
    H 1 S 7 A 7+1 B 8+1 C 9 D 11
    d a m n a t i o n
    Grizzly
    Grizzly

    Planeswalker


    Planeswalker

    X-Mas Event Participant- Player 
    Lineage : Aspect of Vulcan
    Position : None
    Posts : 703
    Guild : Guildless
    Cosmic Coins : 0
    Dungeon Tokens : 0
    Experience : 135

    Character Sheet
    First Skill: Barrier Magic
    Second Skill:
    Third Skill:

    Spellcasting Encouragement Empty Re: Spellcasting Encouragement

    Post by Grizzly 11th March 2014, 8:53 am

    Alright, there are several reasons why I don't agree with this. But since I know some people who hate thorough reasoning I'm gonna keep my response as tight as possible, edit: but I'll attempt to cover EVERYTHING you've said up until now, so this MAY get expansive/

    edit: I don't think anyone's gonna read through the whole thing, but I feel like I've covered every aspect YOU guys have mentioned about this.

    "It's more a game of keeping track of cooldowns"

    Well, the problem right there is that combat needs to be essentially regulated. This is done as far away from actualy rpg'ing as possible, and cooldowns are a very valid way to guide combat on a COMBAT-centered rp forum.

    "why can't you toss simple sparks when [...]"

    Because that has no place in actual combat. Maybe you haven't thought about it, but in plot-rping, social threads and every NOT combat related you can rp freely and do what you just said as long as you don't go overboard. In NON combat rp, nobody keeps track of your cooldowns because it doesn't have an effect on anyone. But the problem is, COMBAT needs to be regulated. And when you're fighting another character, cooldowns are a MUST because everyone would be abusing his or her abilities like shit during relevant fights. No one wants to get hurt and no one wants to die. That's just how it is. So forcing people to think during fights instead of just randomly throwing magic around is an easy way to prevent magic-spamming.

    "[...] significant improvement making characters feel more like [the] mages [...]"

    Now, the thing here is what I just mentioned. Nobody's really reastricting your character in free rp, during social threads, during plot-oriented threads. You can be the mage you want to be when it is not PvP/PvC related. But regulation and tactic applies to rp combat which is why there needs to a format to regulate this. Part of that format is enforcing cooldowns.

    "[...] so long as you have the mana to cast it."

    This is an extremely vital part to the whole system and also a potential to keep this proposition in check. But from S-H Rank (the second most frequent ranks), D and C don't even cost MP anymore, so you could spam simple effects for the heck of it without ever having to worry about restrictions. And I'm sorry to say this, but I don't trust every high ranking mage to regulate him- or herself. I just don't. I've seen the powertalk and giving mages the possibility to force-spam spells is something I do not want to do.

    "I feel cooldowns limit what you can do and force physical which doesn't work for a lot of characters."

    Those that have physical as a passive need to understand that physical combat is PART of their combative abilities. Without the magic, taking slayers as the prime example, they would NOT be as physically proficient as they are, meaning resorting to physical combat is PART of their magic. Additionally, characters that do not have physical proficiency as passives also need to understand that they are able to have OTHER qualities. Intelligence, Awareness, being tactical, stealthiness, a higher magic power... things like those are able to apply to magics that are not physical magics in a much greater way than slayer magics, since THEY have the affinity for being physically proficient. Maybe that helps understanding why I think saying that "forced physical combat" isn't an argument as it is PART of some magics. The rest has other benefits and affinities that people are able to incorporate in combat.

    "[...] cooldown of 0 [...]"

    Here's one thing, the general idea seems feasible and somehow worthy to incorporate, but because of the reasons I just mentioned, a post cooldown must be in order. I do not want a Shuhei to be moving at lightspeed at his whim. Stuff like that will just make some high ranking mages completely unfair in actual combat and I don't support stuff like that. When it gets to actual combat everybody should need to rely on skill and not some super spells they applied for D and can then spam for reasons of "feeling more like an actual mage". For you it may be the case that you just want it to feel more like a mage, but the potential of abuse is way too high for me to support this.

    "[...] it seems silly they'd [still] have to wait so long between causing their tricks."

    Again, PvP and PvC is the issue here. If you can't fight someone without being able to spell spam, then something's not right. You should be able to fight with restrictions, and one of them is not always being able to cast actives. And here's another point. ACTIVES. If they're spells with a 0 post cooldown, then they would become passives. And all D-C Rank spells won't become passives for H Rank mages because again >>> too much potential for abuse and high ranking mages already HAVE gigantic passives anyway. Slayer's HAVE their superhuman body which is a PART of their magic. Their body is ONE of their tools they need to be able to fight with. If you don't want to, then perhaps you've understood the concept of a slayer wrong.

    "Say for example you have a Bullet type magic.    All your D-C-rank spells are on cooldown,  but the time isn't right to use a more powerful spell.   You're forced to resort to a weapon to lay down suppressing fire instead of your own lower ranked bullet spells as should be the case"

    When someone actually gets in that situation I'll acknowledge this example. But since everyone is just focused on trying to make a powerful magic, nobody actually interacts with it making an example like this completely void in my eyes. And this is even quite an extreme example. And if it would have happened once to ONE person, then that still doesn't validate anything. Stuff like this should be a recurring problem, then I can validate this example. But until I see (high ranking) players interacting with their magic outside of event, training or mock combat threads, I can't really take examples like these serious.


    I tried saying something to every argument. Probably nobody is gonna read this because nobody likes reading thorough responses. I just feel that I have created a good image of why I'm against this. Anyone is free to respond to me if he feels that I'm wrong on some points. I will greet it and will gladly accept opposing perspectives on this issue.


    edit: underlined


    _____________________________________________________________________________________

    Lyserg - Grizz - Sinbad

    Character
    Eris
    Eris

    Lich of hell


    Lich of hell

    Moderator- Developer/GFX Artist- Regular VIP Status- Gain An Artifact- Quality Badge Level 1- Quality Badge Level 2- Quality Badge Level 3- Horseman- 11 Sinner- God Of Ishgar- Ten Wizard Saint Member- Guild Master- God Slayer- Demon Slayer- Dragon Slayer- Legal Guild Ace- H-Rank- S-Rank- Richie Rich- Rich- Veteran Level 3- Veteran Level 2- Veteran Level 1- Magic Application Approved!- Obtain A Secondary Magic!- Get A Pet!- Character Application Approved!- Complete Your First Job!- Obtain A Lineage!- Join A Faction!- Senior [500]- Player 
    Lineage : Devil's Conquest
    Position : None
    Posts : 1471
    Guild : Grim Heresy [GM]
    Cosmic Coins : 5
    Dungeon Tokens : 0
    Experience : 0

    Character Sheet
    First Skill: Sunset Eclipse - The Sandstorm GS
    Second Skill: Titan Eclipse • Devil Pact
    Third Skill:

    Spellcasting Encouragement Empty Re: Spellcasting Encouragement

    Post by Eris 11th March 2014, 10:10 am

    I don't feel like the points you made are really... relevant. You seem to be more defending the status quo, or disliking the suggestion because it doesn't effect you personally. It's less about the suggestion being bad, more about how it isn't vital to your play style.


    The only point of yours that seems applicable is the example of Shuhei's flash step.

    I would point out that Shuhei can flash step at his whim anyway, as he has multiple ways of using Flash Step and flash step is integrated into other spells, and with his H-rank empowering is Dragon Force, he can directly flash step as often as he needs anyway within dragon force.

    I would also then point out that anyone could do nice things in this manner, and is not exclusive to select individuals. Abuse is only Abuse if it is not intended or supported. If anything, this would take some power away from individuals like myself and Shuhei and distribute it to everyone else to some degree, effecting A+ ranks more so but the effect would be seen on all ranks of C+.


    To what you said about social topics, I don't expressly agree with the idea that all mechanics can be thrown out the window just because it isn't combat anymore.

    You also missed the point, evident in your comment "If you can't fight someone without being able to spell spam, then something's not right.". For one, as I've tried to say many times now, spamming D-C ranked spells is NOT an issue. Those who will be capable of "spamming" them will have far more effective capabilities, they could do more with their own fist or weak weapon as-is.
    "spamming" these spells would be a tool for harassment, poking, movement, taking out cannon fodder, and providing more flavor to a fight or general scene.
    Why should a master of the arcane be inhibited by "cooldowns" to a beginner's trick, the same cooldowns said beginner would experience? There is no reasonable answer besides "There isn't". Any other response is just contrived.



    _____________________________________________________________________________________

    Spellcasting Encouragement NvVyM98

    Spellcasting Encouragement CkggyrF

    Deception | Despair | Domination
    H 1 S 7 A 7+1 B 8+1 C 9 D 11
    d a m n a t i o n
    Grizzly
    Grizzly

    Planeswalker


    Planeswalker

    X-Mas Event Participant- Player 
    Lineage : Aspect of Vulcan
    Position : None
    Posts : 703
    Guild : Guildless
    Cosmic Coins : 0
    Dungeon Tokens : 0
    Experience : 135

    Character Sheet
    First Skill: Barrier Magic
    Second Skill:
    Third Skill:

    Spellcasting Encouragement Empty Re: Spellcasting Encouragement

    Post by Grizzly 11th March 2014, 10:45 am

    "I don't feel like the points you made are really... relevant. You seem to be more defending the status quo, or disliking the suggestion because it doesn't effect you personally. It's less about the suggestion being bad, more about how it isn't vital to your play style."

    I don't exactly get what you mean by "playing style". If you feel that way, then explain to me why it wouldn't affect my playing style? Do you mean because I haven't been displaying fantasy and lore-related plot with my character up until now? That is simply because I felt that is why my character was suited best for, not what I personally feel I am best at. I do various things, it just that currently my main character is that way.

    "The only point of yours that seems applicable is the example of Shuhei's flash step."

    I acknowledge that my example of Shuhei's Flash Step wasn't obsolete because of his near full control of it anyway. But that was just ONE example. It doesn't end there. I've looked through many high ranking mages' magic and they all have spells at D-B Rank (The Magic Power consumption of B Rank spells is barely relevant to H Rank mages) that are heavily absuable. It isn't JUST Shuhei's Flash Step. I could make a gigantic list and point out all of the abusable and combatively unnecessary stuff in those spells, but I'd rather that you take my word for it as I, like you, have been here quite a while and know a lot of people's magic and the extent even some low-ranking spells take. I can only repeat, I am of the opinion that it does NOT end at Shuhei's Flash Step but is just a starting point that you have admittedly voided. But again, it's just a starting point.

    "I would also then point out that anyone could do nice things in this manner, and is not exclusive to select individuals. Abuse is only Abuse if it is not intended or supported."

    This is certainly a fact that you've put out I can't argue. But when it doesn't get abuse, it would turn to use. And now I wonder how the very sparse number of people who actually attempt to PvP would look once characters are enabled to freely wield some powerful spells. I'm just estimating the future here and not creating any factual evidence, but I feel that an educated guess about possible negative aspects is certainly something to consider when thinking about your proposition.

    "To what you said about social topics, I don't expressly agree with the idea that all mechanics can be thrown out the window just because it isn't combat anymore."

    Then you haven't read correctly. I specifically stated this: "Because that has no place in actual combat. Maybe you haven't thought about it, but in plot-rping, social threads and every NOT combat related you can rp freely and do what you just said as long as you don't go overboard."
    NOT GOING OVERBOARD is the keyterm here. Sensible rping. And the problem is, combat is what it is, it is not really about sensibility. When you're doing actual combat, you will want to win. Of course you can argue that being fair about hits and giving the opponent a chance is sensible enough to enable people to wield their magics this freely, but until I accept this argument I AGAIN, want to see some actual PvP go off the stage. I don't feel as I can support this proposition until I am certain that PvP can actually go off without predicaments and issues worth getting angry over ensue. And I can just recall one predicament in the Era thread, where you personally got upset over Warden's power level. You can admittedly argue that your upsetting was validated since your levels of flexibility concerning magic was evidently imbalanced, but then again - up until now that was the only real PvP in which both characters made actual combat and wanted to win. Until I accept you telling me "It won't be that way when stuff is balanced" I want to have actually seen PvP go smoothly. Or actually any real IC combat for that matter.

    " For one, as I've tried to say many times now, spamming D-C ranked spells is NOT an issue. Those who will be capable of "spamming" them will have far more effective capabilities, they could do more with their own fist or weak weapon as-is. "spamming" these spells would be a tool for harassment, poking, movement, taking out cannon fodder, and providing more flavor to a fight or general scene. "

    Then I feel you do not fully understand the extent some D or C Rank spells can take. Not to mention B Rank spells here which again, barely weigh down on high ranking character's magic power. And even the extent is CURRENTLY not there, I want some way to ensure that FUTURE abuse is made impossible by making D-C Rank spells TRULY weak and not important to high ranking characters. (Do not quote me on this, but I feel that doing that is somewhat unfair to low-ranking mages.)

    "Why should a master of the arcane be inhibited by "cooldowns" to a beginner's trick, the same cooldowns said beginner would experience? There is no reasonable answer besides "There isn't". Any other response is just contrived."

    Stating that any other response is just contrived seems like leaning out of the window EXTREMELY far. Why? Because when doing things like combat you have to disregard the actual IC positions of some and regard what is fair, and what is sensible. What you write off as contrived is what I personally see as the sense of OOC harmony that we need, the systematic balance that is needed to make things fair and formatted so EVERYONE can take part. Not just those that have enough skill, those that are smart enough, those that are able to rp sensitively.

    And in your response you completely ignored the fact that there is currently barely any IC combat. Before something like your proposition happens, I want to at least SEE some people fight IC so an image of what some people do and don't, what is feasible and what is not feasible is created.

    PS: I'm not trying to completely invalidate your proposition. In a way, I am for it because I am for free rp. But with the amount of new rp'ers and the LITTLE amount of PvP I've seen, I am just concerned if such a proposition can get implemented without creating chaos for people because they can suddenly do things they couldn't do before and then go overboard. I personally enjoy the idea of being a free'er mage and having more freedom to look forward to, but the side of me that regards the reality of what is currently on the forum is looking at it from a different perspective. I apologize if I come off brash by the way. Saying "it is not my intention" doesn't really do much, so I'll just keep my mouth shut about my intentions and say sorry if I offend you in any way.


    _____________________________________________________________________________________

    Lyserg - Grizz - Sinbad

    Character
    Grizzly
    Grizzly

    Planeswalker


    Planeswalker

    X-Mas Event Participant- Player 
    Lineage : Aspect of Vulcan
    Position : None
    Posts : 703
    Guild : Guildless
    Cosmic Coins : 0
    Dungeon Tokens : 0
    Experience : 135

    Character Sheet
    First Skill: Barrier Magic
    Second Skill:
    Third Skill:

    Spellcasting Encouragement Empty Re: Spellcasting Encouragement

    Post by Grizzly 11th March 2014, 11:02 am

    Alrighty, I've spoken to Chaotic about this and he stated that after a discussion with Sephiria they came up with something I found extremely interesting. I hope I've understood the idea correctly and I will try to propose it from my own understanding. The credit for this proposition however, goes entirely to Sephiria and Chaotic and they can feel free to roflstomp in here anytime voiding my understanding of this:

    Their idea was the following: As you grow in rank the in character part is as you said. Lower ranking magic will become less and less exasperating and complex to use. For an H Rank it gets to the point where D and C Rank spells cost NO MP at all.

    Your proposition is that we reduce the cooldowns as well on some spells as we grow in rank, making some spells freely usable without any sort of worries over their toll on the character's stamina.

    Here is where Chaotic's and Sephiria's proposition kicks in. Instead of reducing the cooldowns that the majority will get to 0 when you hit the highest possible ranks, the cooldowns will stay the same. BUT, the POSSIBILITY to completely void the cooldowns in exchange for MP will kick in for mages. The higher in rank, the LESS the cost will be to void the cooldowns. For H Ranks, the cost would again - be near zero.

    It is an idea I personally found intriguing as it gives a much higher sense of balance for your proposition. While the cost would individually be NEAR zero, it would stack up should a high ranking mage decide to continuously cast magic without breaks. It would give both a sense of balance and a sense of being "magical", as essentially you are able to void cooldowns in exchange for magic power (just a bit on high ranks), but couldn't do it when you're completely exhausted. Say an H Rank mage is at 5% during a fight, then he couldn't choose to just cast little D Rank spells without cooldown and would have to wait the cooldowns of his D Rank spells as they systematically are without cost, but the cooldown would IC'ly play the part of exhaustion.

    I hope I explained their proposition and my opinion on it somewhat understandable.

    What do you think?


    _____________________________________________________________________________________

    Lyserg - Grizz - Sinbad

    Character
    Zeno
    Zeno

    Emotional Tempest 1


    Emotional Tempest 1

    Administrator- Quality Badge Level 1- Quality Badge Level 2- Quality Badge Level 3- God Of Ishgar- Ten Wizard Saint Member- Guild Master- H-Rank- Rich- Veteran Level 3- Veteran Level 2- Veteran Level 1- Magic Application Approved!- Character Application Approved!- Complete Your First Job!- Obtain A Lineage!- Join A Faction!- Master [1000]- Senior [500]- Novice [250]- Hero- Villain- Have Seijin On Your Friends List- 1 Year Anniversary- Player 
    Lineage : Spirit Link
    Position : None
    Posts : 1060
    Guild : Eclipse Soul
    Cosmic Coins : 0
    Dungeon Tokens : 0
    Age : 40
    Experience : 337,500

    Character Sheet
    First Skill: Major Arcana
    Second Skill: Minor Arcana
    Third Skill:

    Spellcasting Encouragement Empty Re: Spellcasting Encouragement

    Post by Zeno 12th March 2014, 12:56 am

    Adele wrote:Alrighty, I've spoken to Chaotic about this and he stated that after a discussion with Sephiria they came up with something I found extremely interesting. I hope I've understood the idea correctly and I will try to propose it from my own understanding. The credit for this proposition however, goes entirely to Sephiria and Chaotic and they can feel free to roflstomp in here anytime voiding my understanding of this:

    Their idea was the following: As you grow in rank the in character part is as you said. Lower ranking magic will become less and less exasperating and complex to use. For an H Rank it gets to the point where D and C Rank spells cost NO MP at all.

    Your proposition is that we reduce the cooldowns as well on some spells as we grow in rank, making some spells freely usable without any sort of worries over their toll on the character's stamina.

    Here is where Chaotic's and Sephiria's proposition kicks in. Instead of reducing the cooldowns that the majority will get to 0 when you hit the highest possible ranks, the cooldowns will stay the same. BUT, the POSSIBILITY to completely void the cooldowns in exchange for MP will kick in for mages. The higher in rank, the LESS the cost will be to void the cooldowns. For H Ranks, the cost would again - be near zero.

    It is an idea I personally found intriguing as it gives a much higher sense of balance for your proposition. While the cost would individually be NEAR zero, it would stack up should a high ranking mage decide to continuously cast magic without breaks. It would give both a sense of balance and a sense of being "magical", as essentially you are able to void cooldowns in exchange for magic power (just a bit on high ranks), but couldn't do it when you're completely exhausted. Say an H Rank mage is at 5% during a fight, then he couldn't choose to just cast little D Rank spells without cooldown and would have to wait the cooldowns of his D Rank spells as they systematically are without cost, but the cooldown would IC'ly play the part of exhaustion.

    I hope I explained their proposition and my opinion on it somewhat understandable.

    What do you think?

    This actually balances out the whole idea by a significant amount. I'm inclined to support it.


    _____________________________________________________________________________________

    Spellcasting Encouragement Zeno1_by_gramcrackers-d7l4bjh
    Zeno
    Zeno

    Emotional Tempest 1


    Emotional Tempest 1

    Administrator- Quality Badge Level 1- Quality Badge Level 2- Quality Badge Level 3- God Of Ishgar- Ten Wizard Saint Member- Guild Master- H-Rank- Rich- Veteran Level 3- Veteran Level 2- Veteran Level 1- Magic Application Approved!- Character Application Approved!- Complete Your First Job!- Obtain A Lineage!- Join A Faction!- Master [1000]- Senior [500]- Novice [250]- Hero- Villain- Have Seijin On Your Friends List- 1 Year Anniversary- Player 
    Lineage : Spirit Link
    Position : None
    Posts : 1060
    Guild : Eclipse Soul
    Cosmic Coins : 0
    Dungeon Tokens : 0
    Age : 40
    Experience : 337,500

    Character Sheet
    First Skill: Major Arcana
    Second Skill: Minor Arcana
    Third Skill:

    Spellcasting Encouragement Empty Re: Spellcasting Encouragement

    Post by Zeno 12th March 2014, 8:06 am

    With a few adjustments here and there of course.


    _____________________________________________________________________________________

    Spellcasting Encouragement Zeno1_by_gramcrackers-d7l4bjh
    Serapheal
    Serapheal

    Moderator- Quality Badge Level 1- Quality Badge Level 2- Quality Badge Level 3- H-Rank- S-Rank- Richie Rich- Veteran Level 2- Veteran Level 1- Magic Application Approved!- Character Application Approved!- Join A Faction!- Master [1000]- Senior [500]- Novice [250]- Player 
    Lineage : Genisis Key
    Position : None
    Posts : 2018
    Guild : 尺u刀乇 ズ刀ノgんイ丂
    Cosmic Coins : 0
    Dungeon Tokens : 0
    Mentor : []D [] []V[] []D
    Experience : 0

    Character Sheet
    First Skill: Claire Mierre
    Second Skill:
    Third Skill:

    Spellcasting Encouragement Empty Re: Spellcasting Encouragement

    Post by Serapheal 12th March 2014, 8:33 am

    I'm against the idea that D-rank spells need to be "Balanced" at all for S-H-rank mages.   Their significance in any legit interaction of enemies of appropriate rank to do anything to them in the first place is minimal.   Casting D-rank spells as an H-rank should be like breathing.


    [size=11.818181991577148]"You are beyond imagination, seeming as if you are a walking Legend everywhere you go. Fairies, Demons, Gods, and Dragons, all feel comfortable around you; and will speak with you as an equal or close to it. The Arcane is under your complete and utter control."[/size]



    "[size=11.818181991577148]The Arcane is under your complete and utter control"[/size]




    [size=11.818181991577148]" Your legend begins as You've unlocked the secrets of the Arcane. 
    [/size]


    [size=11.818181991577148]When folks witness your feats, you're talked about from town to town. Power is no longer an issue and even your name is either respected, loved, or feared.
    [/size]


    [size=11.818181991577148]Only the grandest of spells can affect your body and mind. The Arcane bends to your every will and thought."[/size]






    [size=11.818181991577148]The Arcane bends to your every will and thought.[/size]







    Yea...  not so much.


    The scope and capability of the high ranking mages without freely available d-ranked spells is such that to anyone the small spells would be significant against,  would be creamed in one to two hits from their more legit spells,  or even a punch.


    Meanwhile,  you don't seem to realize that it is balanced.   Anyone of significant threat to you has the same features as you do.   Sure there are those with abilities such as Shuhei,  but Shuhei already doesn't have to worry about limited flash stepping in any real way.   If he wants to,  he can flash step freely regardless due to it's integration throughout the entirety of his magic.


    And anyone can make themselves just as capable in their own ways with their own style.


    _______________




    That said,  if a scaling cost is what it takes for you guys to even consider it,   fine.   After the first re-cast,  of a D-rank spell on an H-rank,  1%.  Then 2%, 3%.   Once it hits 10% you've gone into the superspamming territory and the cost from here could come in tens.   20%, 30%, 40%.
    That would,  however,  end up wasting 90% magic to cast 13 D-rank spells.   Compared to the equivalent amount of D-rank spells you could effectively cast using higher ranked spells,  resulting in 144 D-rank spells for 90% MP.   Which means that by spending 90% MP you could use in cooldown-less D-rank spells about half-again what you can do with a single 5% A-rank spell.


    While that seems a little ridiculous to me at first,  it does discourage people for stacking D's to higher capability.   But it also reinforces my wish that there was more distance between the spellranks to give more room to work with,  to about 3 instead of 2.   So 3 D's would be needed to equal 1 C.  But that's an entirely different suggestion I doubt you guys would consider.




    EDIT:

    The stupid size tags are not my doing.  The forum has repeatedly messed up the size codes like that and they're getting a real pain the in the ass to fix,  so I'm not going to bother in this post.


    _____________________________________________________________________________________

    Spellcasting Encouragement XeQjtg0
    Chaotic Rumble
    Chaotic Rumble

    Dark Insanity


    Dark Insanity

    Administrator- Moderator- Developer/GFX Artist- Gain An Artifact- Quality Badge Level 1- Quality Badge Level 2- Quality Badge Level 3- Ten Wizard Saint Member- Guild Master- God Slayer- Dragon Slayer- Legal Guild Ace- H-Rank- S-Rank- A-Rank- Rich- Veteran Level 3- Veteran Level 2- Veteran Level 1- Character History!- Magic Application Approved!- Obtain A Secondary Magic!- Get A Pet!- Character Application Approved!- Complete Your First Job!- Obtain A Lineage!- Join A Faction!- Grand Master [2000]- Master [1000]- Senior [500]- Novice [250]- Tournament Participation Badge- 1 Year Anniversary- Player 
    Lineage : Corrupted King of Knights
    Position : King Of Kings
    Posts : 2754
    Guild : Blue Pegasus
    Cosmic Coins : 0
    Dungeon Tokens : 0
    Age : 26
    Mentor : Sapphiron ; The Shadow
    Experience : 601,187

    Character Sheet
    First Skill: Refraction : Sword King
    Second Skill: N/A (for now)
    Third Skill:

    Spellcasting Encouragement Empty Re: Spellcasting Encouragement

    Post by Chaotic Rumble 12th March 2014, 12:24 pm

    Allow me to explain why we've come up with the conclusion, we being Sephiria and myself.

    It doesn't MATTER what rank you are, in the end, you're still using magical energy, hence why the magic takes place. It doesn't matter if you're a B-Rank, S-Rank, or even H-Rank. In the end, you're still using that small bit of magical energy required for those spells.

    Let me make a comparison:
    I'm a really good rock climber. I'm REALLY good at it. I'm so good in fact, last summer I was able to beat the guy who was #1 at rock climbing in Europe of my age division, and I doubt that has changed too much.

    I generally do a climbing type named bouldering; it's what I specialize in. In bouldering, our grades go into V(insert number here), with V0 being the easiest of the easy and my maximum is V8+ (It's tougher than V8, though not determined).

    For arguments sake, let's say that a V0 is D-Rank, and a V8+ is H-Rank. I can do V8+s fairly well, though I can't do many in one practice. It's too tiring. V0s I can do on and on and on. I can probably do over 100 V0s in one practice with no break and STILL be able to go at it, that's how trivial they are for me. The thing is, they require energy.

    No matter how much I want to avoid it, the energy usage stacks. I won't be able to do a V0 as well as I could after doing a V8+, or even multiple V0s, with NO rest! That's how our idea came into place - "No matter what, you're still using that tiny amount of energy. If you do it once and rest, then it will be as though you've taken a few steps. If you keep on doing it with no rest, your usage of that energy keeps on stacking up."

    Very rough, but it gets my general point across.
    No matter how you try to avoid it, energy is energy. That's the point. And no, the usage won't stack up to be something like...
    First cast - free
    Second cast - 1%
    Third cast - 2%
    Etc.

    The cost will be consistent. In other words, should the cost be 1%, it will ALWAYS remain at 1% for voiding the cooldown.

    We're not gods. We're not invincible. We're beings that require energy to do these things, regardless of how you want to look at it, and magic requires energy from us. If you don't take a small break, it builds up, or if you reduce the amount of break you generally take from doing things that are in between, IT STACKS UP!

    That's why energy IMO should be required should you decide to reduce the cooldowns. It only makes sense. It doesn't matter what you are - energy is energy, and you'll always use it for magic, regardless of the amount.


    _____________________________________________________________________________________



    Spellcasting Encouragement V4W5D0r


    Bank

    Seru's Main Theme

    Spoiler:


    Seru's Battle theme

    Spoiler:
    Rosetta Crawford
    Rosetta Crawford

    Administrator- Moderator- Developer/GFX Artist- Regular VIP Status- VIP- Gain An Artifact- Quality Badge Level 1- Quality Badge Level 2- Quality Badge Level 3- God Of Ishgar- Ten Wizard Saint Member- Guild Master- Demon Slayer- Legal Guild Ace- H-Rank- S-Rank- A-Rank- Veteran Level 2- Veteran Level 1- Magic Application Approved!- Obtain A Secondary Magic!- Character Application Approved!- Complete Your First Job!- Obtain A Lineage!- Join A Faction!- Grand Master [2000]- Master [1000]- Senior [500]- Novice [250]- X-Mas Event Participant- Hero- Villain- 1 Year Anniversary- Player 
    Lineage : Embodiment of the 13th
    Position : None
    Posts : 3499
    Guild : Blue Pegasus
    Cosmic Coins : 0
    Dungeon Tokens : 0
    Mentor : Sky Emperor Shangdi
    Experience : 367,824.5

    Character Sheet
    First Skill: Ten No Kichi
    Second Skill:
    Third Skill:

    Spellcasting Encouragement Empty Re: Spellcasting Encouragement

    Post by Rosetta Crawford 17th March 2014, 3:48 am

    I am liking this void cooldowns thing. It seems fair enough.



    However, what i'm suggesting is perhaps going to make it more complex, but what if we did it so that you could expend magic power to reduce the cooldown as well as voiding it entirely. So rather than having to wait four posts I could wait 2 posts at a cost of some MP. Let me give an example.

    Say I am using a D rank spell that has a 3 post cooldown. Two posts of its cooldown have been used. Should it cost as much to void the remainder of the cooldown? Not that I am aware of. You've rested most of the time. This is just a suggestion




    _____________________________________________________________________________________

    Spellcasting Encouragement Zack2_by_gramcrackers-d8ker96

    Spellcasting Encouragement Zack_by_ravenart5-d8j23c0

    Spellcasting Encouragement Zackrose_zpse9a22d85
    Current missions(4/6):  get the squid A, King of Fighters(S), Village Protection(A), Repair the House(D)
    Kirahunter
    Kirahunter

    The Phoenix


    The Phoenix

    Moderator- Developer/GFX Artist- VIP- Quality Badge Level 1- Quality Badge Level 2- Quality Badge Level 3- Ten Wizard Saint Member- Rising Star- Guild Master- Demon Slayer- S-Rank- A-Rank- Haiku Contest Participant- Veteran Level 2- Veteran Level 1- Magic Application Approved!- Character Application Approved!- Complete Your First Job!- Obtain A Lineage!- Join A Faction!- Senior [500]- Novice [250]- Hero- 1 Year Anniversary- Player 
    Lineage : Keeper of War
    Position : None
    Posts : 1358
    Cosmic Coins : 0
    Dungeon Tokens : 0
    Age : 25
    Experience : 1,250

    Character Sheet
    First Skill: Seith - Human Possession
    Second Skill: Stardust
    Third Skill:

    Spellcasting Encouragement Empty Re: Spellcasting Encouragement

    Post by Kirahunter 17th March 2014, 8:15 am

    H-ranks are described as being on par with gods and demons, having complete and utter control over the forces of magic. D-rank spells are the lowest form of magic imaginable. So it makes sense that H-Ranks can cast them without consuming any magic power so if they can be cast without any magic power wouldn't it make sense that they could be able to cast them constantly? There is more to this suggestion then that it makes sense, it could really improve quality of rp around here.

    From my experiences on this site I have begun to see that as you rank up you begin to very rarely depend on lower ranked spells because of the large gap in power between each rank. Looking at jobs, for the average b-rank boss it takes 6 A-Rank spells to defeat. That's 48 d-rank spells, which is more then a b-rank mage can even cast. It's pretty ridiculous to me.

    But the real problem can be explained in one c-box quote

    [10:11:58] Adele : We can already move at the highest possible speeds, destroy whole cities
    [10:12:05] Adele : Break mountains
    [10:12:10] Talen : .
    [10:12:13] Adele : So that's not supposed to be top dog?
    [10:12:21] Kirahunter : so why is it we can't shoot hand sized fire balls all we want?

    as for balancing issues

    [10:14:41] Silent~Night : It's like saying a guy with a pocketknife has an advantage over another guy with a pocketknife o-o
    [10:14:52] Silent~Night : When they both have rocket launchers.
    [10:14:59] Silent~Night : And tanks.


    _____________________________________________________________________________________

    [20:44:53] Kirahunter : also I like the sound of my own voice
    [20:44:59] Kirahunter : so I had to say something

    Missions Completed

    D- 6 (150 exp)
    C- 1 (50 exp)
    B- 1 (1,050 exp)
    A- 0
    S- 0

    Total:1250

    Character
    Primary Magic
    Rosetta Crawford
    Rosetta Crawford

    Administrator- Moderator- Developer/GFX Artist- Regular VIP Status- VIP- Gain An Artifact- Quality Badge Level 1- Quality Badge Level 2- Quality Badge Level 3- God Of Ishgar- Ten Wizard Saint Member- Guild Master- Demon Slayer- Legal Guild Ace- H-Rank- S-Rank- A-Rank- Veteran Level 2- Veteran Level 1- Magic Application Approved!- Obtain A Secondary Magic!- Character Application Approved!- Complete Your First Job!- Obtain A Lineage!- Join A Faction!- Grand Master [2000]- Master [1000]- Senior [500]- Novice [250]- X-Mas Event Participant- Hero- Villain- 1 Year Anniversary- Player 
    Lineage : Embodiment of the 13th
    Position : None
    Posts : 3499
    Guild : Blue Pegasus
    Cosmic Coins : 0
    Dungeon Tokens : 0
    Mentor : Sky Emperor Shangdi
    Experience : 367,824.5

    Character Sheet
    First Skill: Ten No Kichi
    Second Skill:
    Third Skill:

    Spellcasting Encouragement Empty Re: Spellcasting Encouragement

    Post by Rosetta Crawford 17th March 2014, 9:32 am

    The fact is they can't cast them without magic power entirely. The reason we say 0% magic power is used is because the amount they use is infinitisemly tiny and/or they regenerate it as fast as they use it.

    I mean we regen 10% every 5 posts...which is for a H rank enough to cast an S rank spell. So basically every post you as a person could regenerate 1/5 of an S rank, which is just under a B rank in power (say 1.5 C ranks). A D rank works out at like 1/16 of an S rank.

    So whilst you are using magic power...you regen it fast enough that the use is effectively zero.

    If I use Chao's example....he said he could essentially climb a ton of V0s without stopping. This is because for him a V0 is so easy that it barely uses any energy. It still uses energy though. However, he is probably recovers that energy so quickly that he doesn't notice the drain at all.

    I don't feel we should be able to spam spells without some cost. However, I also don't feel that H ranks shouldn't be able to use D rank spells more freely than a D rank. This cooldown voiding/reduction at the cost of a small amount of magic power sounds find to me.

    Heck for a H rank using a D rank it will probably be 0.5% MP or something.


    _____________________________________________________________________________________

    Spellcasting Encouragement Zack2_by_gramcrackers-d8ker96

    Spellcasting Encouragement Zack_by_ravenart5-d8j23c0

    Spellcasting Encouragement Zackrose_zpse9a22d85
    Current missions(4/6):  get the squid A, King of Fighters(S), Village Protection(A), Repair the House(D)
    Samus Aran
    Samus Aran

    Administrator- Moderator- Developer/GFX Artist- Quality Badge Level 1- Quality Badge Level 2- Quality Badge Level 3- Rising Star- Demon Slayer- Dragon Slayer- S-Rank- A-Rank- Veteran Level 1- Master [1000]- Senior [500]- Novice [250]- Player 
    Lineage : Daughter of the Almighty
    Position : None
    Posts : 1549
    Guild : Eclipse Soul
    Cosmic Coins : 0
    Dungeon Tokens : 0
    Mentor : Morgana (Demon Slayer) Jyuubei (Swordsmanship)
    Experience : 80,050

    Character Sheet
    First Skill: Venom Demon Slayer
    Second Skill:
    Third Skill:

    Spellcasting Encouragement Empty Re: Spellcasting Encouragement

    Post by Samus Aran 17th March 2014, 9:49 am

    When Chao and I originally came up with our idea, I originally propositioned for it to be 0.1% if you wanted to void a D-rank spells cooldown as a H-rank. That's 10 D-rank spells for 1% of magical energy.

    Now I feel that might be a tad low, seeing as how that means a H-rank can spam 100 D-ranks and only use up 10% of their magical energy. But I think that around the 0.1-0.5 range is more than fair enough. It makes them able to use D-ranks way more freely, but at the same time they have to think ahead and plan out what they want to do. If not, they could use up all of their remaining energy firing off D-rank spells.

    H-rank mages are indeed inhumanely strong, but they also still take from a finite source. And no matter how small it seems, that little D-rank does take something from you. No matter how insignificant it seems at the start.

    And having complete control over the forces of magic doesn't mean you don't have a finite source you're taking from.


    _____________________________________________________________________________________

    Spellcasting Encouragement Tumblr_minephQ2G81r37arko2_500
    Sephiria's Themes:
    Serapheal
    Serapheal

    Moderator- Quality Badge Level 1- Quality Badge Level 2- Quality Badge Level 3- H-Rank- S-Rank- Richie Rich- Veteran Level 2- Veteran Level 1- Magic Application Approved!- Character Application Approved!- Join A Faction!- Master [1000]- Senior [500]- Novice [250]- Player 
    Lineage : Genisis Key
    Position : None
    Posts : 2018
    Guild : 尺u刀乇 ズ刀ノgんイ丂
    Cosmic Coins : 0
    Dungeon Tokens : 0
    Mentor : []D [] []V[] []D
    Experience : 0

    Character Sheet
    First Skill: Claire Mierre
    Second Skill:
    Third Skill:

    Spellcasting Encouragement Empty Re: Spellcasting Encouragement

    Post by Serapheal 17th March 2014, 12:33 pm

    Kyle Vay wrote:I was leaning more towards 20%-30% magic because D and C rank spells are actually free in energy.


    I'm going to stop you right there and say that that would be pathetic. 20-30% magic to recast a D-RANK SPELL is more than it costs to cast an H-RANK SPELL.


    And again,  it's NOT bad to be able to "Spam" the beginner spells and there are vastly more effective things to do.   It would take dozens of D-rank spells to be relevant on the level at which they become available for rapid casting.  Whats more,  is that it's not exclusive to one or two individuals.   It's freely available for anyone to benefit from.


    This forum encourages weapon usage far too much,  when the in the setting it's supposed to be based off no one actually uses weapons if it isn't their magic.   Yet you're pushed into weapon combat because spells cannot keep up and serve their greatest use as a supplement to weapons.  Weapons should supplement the magic,  not be the primary utility,  and be set up in such a way that people would not be hampered by opting to not use weapons because it doesn't fit their character.


    Instead we have a culture of weapon usage in which everyone uses them and those that don't are disadvantaged...   Even some cheery schoolgirl mage ends up throwing around a Scythe now.   People who it doesn't make sense to use weapons have to use weapons >,..,>


    To be frank, this suggestion would only help that but the disparity would remain in the low ranked mages.

    Hm.


    I'd like to see Signature Spells,   which function as spells but are more basic and freely available just as weapon usage is.    Instead of shooting someone,  or stabbing someone,  you utilize your actual magic without MP cost or cooldown,  just as swinging a sword is.


    _____________________________________________________________________________________

    Spellcasting Encouragement XeQjtg0

      Current date/time is 5th November 2024, 9:49 am