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This is a subject I'm fairly passionate towards, and as such I'm gonna try to make this a bit different from my normal basic "two cents" suggestions I give every once in a blue moon.
So, I was scrolling through the forum and wandering around through subforums, trying to read topics while I think of my magic and how to do this exam. Along the way I've come across the Positions subforum, and what baffled me the most about it was that the Legal Guild Positions had about 200 Posts in it, the Dark Guild Positions had almost a hundred, and then the Slayer / Golden Key positions subforum has almost 500 posts in it. It could be said that it's another case of super over rated Slayers, but that's a rant I'd rather not get in to. In fact, it brought my attention away from Slayers and Keys, and towards the Dark Guild Positions subforum. I'm a Dark Mage of course, so I was going to look at the probability of me being given a Sinner position once my plots start up and I reach appropriate rank. Then there's when it hit me:
Sinner requirements still haven't been required.
I chocked it up to a bad case of maybe people forgot the Sinners existed, due to so many light mages wanting to be the biggest hero around, and not enough Dark Guild members trying to do more than... Well kill people. So, I decided to look at the Wizard Saint requirements, and once I reached the topic, it was the exact same. I personally feel that these requirements are much too strict, and make it next to impossible to get a position as Sinner or Saint without doing something extremely drastic like killing the GM of the lightest light guild around, blowing up their guild hall, slaughtering their guild members, and nuking their town for good measure, all just to get a Sinner position. Of course this is highly drastic, but that's against the point.
The point is, I felt I, if anyone, should propose as a suggestion solutions to the problems that exist within the positions as they are, or at least draw attention to them. So, I'll organize this suggestion in terms of problems, then possible solutions, then personal opinions. Like with every other suggestion I make, I mean no ill intent when writing this, I welcome comments, criticism, and opinions, just not flames because that's obnoxious to deal with.
Before I begin, here are the four different requirements, between the Wizard Saints, Eleven Sinners, Coming Storms, and Rising Stars:
And there's my occasional 3 month 2 cents. I'm not expecting anyone to follow and advocate for my personal views on solutions and problems, but I do hope that this suggestion brings attention to the, as they are at the moment, lackluster positions.
So, I was scrolling through the forum and wandering around through subforums, trying to read topics while I think of my magic and how to do this exam. Along the way I've come across the Positions subforum, and what baffled me the most about it was that the Legal Guild Positions had about 200 Posts in it, the Dark Guild Positions had almost a hundred, and then the Slayer / Golden Key positions subforum has almost 500 posts in it. It could be said that it's another case of super over rated Slayers, but that's a rant I'd rather not get in to. In fact, it brought my attention away from Slayers and Keys, and towards the Dark Guild Positions subforum. I'm a Dark Mage of course, so I was going to look at the probability of me being given a Sinner position once my plots start up and I reach appropriate rank. Then there's when it hit me:
Sinner requirements still haven't been required.
I chocked it up to a bad case of maybe people forgot the Sinners existed, due to so many light mages wanting to be the biggest hero around, and not enough Dark Guild members trying to do more than... Well kill people. So, I decided to look at the Wizard Saint requirements, and once I reached the topic, it was the exact same. I personally feel that these requirements are much too strict, and make it next to impossible to get a position as Sinner or Saint without doing something extremely drastic like killing the GM of the lightest light guild around, blowing up their guild hall, slaughtering their guild members, and nuking their town for good measure, all just to get a Sinner position. Of course this is highly drastic, but that's against the point.
The point is, I felt I, if anyone, should propose as a suggestion solutions to the problems that exist within the positions as they are, or at least draw attention to them. So, I'll organize this suggestion in terms of problems, then possible solutions, then personal opinions. Like with every other suggestion I make, I mean no ill intent when writing this, I welcome comments, criticism, and opinions, just not flames because that's obnoxious to deal with.
Before I begin, here are the four different requirements, between the Wizard Saints, Eleven Sinners, Coming Storms, and Rising Stars:
Coming Storms wrote:
[center]There are mages just like Rising Stars, but on the other side of the coin. Dark mages ranked D to B rank that have become infamous in their journeys are called Coming Storms. These mages have demonstrated to the Magic Council and to Earthland that they are a force to be reckoned with and should not be underestimated. As soon as the mage turns him or herself in, the title will be stripped and given to someone else.
11 Sinners of Fiore wrote:Description: The 11 Sinners of Fiore are the exact opposite of the Wizard Saints. Each wizard is ranked starting with the top four, the four horseman of the end of times. Then on to the lower 7, the seven deadly sins. IN NO WAY does the title [color:e25e=cc00cc][of?] each position has [color:e25e=cc00cc][to?] represent the character. To become a Sinner of Fiore a mage must have the ultimate record of infamy to include actually making an attack on the Magic Council that has left the council devastated.
If all positions are full, dark mages can fight for the title.
-Requirements-
-S-Rank is the minimum rank you can register for the four horsemen
-A-Rank is the minimum rank for the deadly sins title.
-You must remain active with this position or you will be removed INSTANTLY
-All mages applying for the four horsemen have to participate in 2 general events (NOT GUILD EVENTS, MINI EVENTS, OR CO OP GUILD EVENTS).
-All mages applying for the seven deadly sins have to participate in 1 general events(DITTO)
-Generally, most positions will require you to have taken a big role in the event to have impacted it greatly, however, if a mage does other actions that impact the event or site, either directly or indirectly, that can reduce how big of a role and impact one would need to have in an event. On extremely rare cases, an Admin can bypass the event rule to grant the one applying for the position that very position; THIS WILL HARDLY HAPPEN IF AT ALL! A link to an Admin to review will be required in order for this rule to take effect.
-These positions are the exact opposite of the Wizard Saints. They hold no power over the dark guilds unless the dark mages hold that IC respect.
-You can't have two positions.Rising Stars wrote:[center]
Description: Rising stars are mages ranked D to B rank. They are mages that have made their name known amongst all of the people of Fiore or even Earthland. Once a Rising Star becomes A rank, he/she must give up their title and the next Rising Star will be born. Rising Stars are full of integrity and honor. Those that go against the Magic Council will be immediately stripped of their title.
10 Wizard Saints wrote:"To become a member of the Ten Wizard Saints, a Mage must be granted this title by the Chairman of the Magic Council. There are different types of Mages who hold this prestigious title, though a few are known to be S-Rank Mages of their respective guilds or even Guild Masters. The strength of the Ten Wizard Saints is known to be so immense that they are well renowned throughout the continent. Members of the Ten Wizard Saints are exceptionally strong where a single member is able to take on scores of average Mages with ease and defeat more powerful Mages with little effort. In fact, it has been stated that if two members, current or former, were to clash in a fight, it could cause a "cataclysm"."
~*Requirements*~
- Tier one is reserved for S rank mages and Tier 2 is reserved for A Rank and higher -
- To apply, for Tier 2 you must participate in 1 event -
- To upgrade to Tier 1, you must participate in 2 more events -
-To skip to Tier 1, you must participate in 3 events. -
- To apply, you must have participated in at least one site event -
- Generally, most positions will require you to have taken a big role in the event to have impacted it greatly, however, if a mage does other actions that impact the event or site, either directly or indirectly, that can reduce how big of a role and impact one would need to have in an event. On extremely rare cases, an Admin can bypass the event rule to grant the one applying for the position that very position; THIS WILL HARDLY HAPPEN IF AT ALL! A link to an Admin to review will be required in order for this rule to take effect -
- To apply, your character must be in good standings with the Magic Council and Fiore in general
- If you would like someone's spot, you may challenge them to a duel. If they accept and lose, you will claim their position! -
- To upgrade to a higher position, in the same tier simply pm an Admin with proof of why you should upgrade to that position IN YOUR SAME TIER! -
- Problems:
- *The first, and probably biggest problem I have with both Sinners and Saints is that they require you to participate in events. Not one, but two. Three in the case of you wanting to skip tier 2 entirely. Not only participate, in fact, you must play a major role in them. This, in theory, is a great requirement because that means your character is so much of a threat or so much of a hero that they can have big roles in events which house many players, thus giving them general fame. However this is only possible in a Utopian world. Not only do events rarely happen, but when they do they die within the first week or so. This means that OoC affairs get in the way of possible IC plots, which shouldn't happen. Yes, people have their own lives and I'm not speaking about that at all. If you're taking a break from RP, you do you, however your break from RP won't affect your character at all unless you spefically want it to. This is the exact opposite in terms of events. Since events, which are an "OoC" affair created by staff, die off so easily when created (not to mention how little there are), your character can never truly in canon establish themselves as famous or infamous. As such, utilizing events as a requirement is only viable in theory, and exists as a problem.
*"On extremely rare cases, an Admin can bypass the event rule to grant the one applying for the position that very position; THIS WILL HARDLY HAPPEN IF AT ALL!"
This, somewhat going off of the event rule, is also what I see as a problem. If someone posts large dump trucks worth of good / bad deeds on various different levels that could easily establish them as famous or infamous, why should they only rarely be accepted to the group. The Sinners / Saints are supposed to be - as I see them - "CS / RS 2.0." By this I mean the good guys get better and stronger and the bad guys get worse and stronger. So, if one reaches the appropriate rank and they have added more terrible deeds, each of varying severity to their resume, do they not deserve a position that says "I'm a really bad bad guy?"
*"To become a Sinner of Fiore a mage must have the ultimate record of infamy to include actually making an attack on the Magic Council that has left the council devastated."
"- To apply, your character must be in good standings with the Magic Council and Fiore in general "
Both of these seem generally impossible as well, since the Magic Council doesn't really exist. They exist, but as invisible NPCs that do absolutely nothing but send out the occasional Job Request. This being said, anyone can just "Make an attack on the MC that leaves them devastated." As all they have to do is just say they waltz up and nuke some NPCs. The harder one, honestly, is the latter option for Wizard Saints due to their being no real "Magic Council" to impress. There are 3-4 jobs so far I've seen that say "You receive attention from the Magic Council," so sure maybe you could do those. But if everyone that applies for the Wizard Saint positions do the exact same jobs, doesn't that defeat the purpose of them being special?
*"- To upgrade to a higher position, in the same tier simply pm an Admin with proof of why you should upgrade to that position IN YOUR SAME TIER!"
Why can't someone move to a new tier? Yes, I know about the event rule, but assuming that the event rule wasn't there, shouldn't someone that proves themselves to be a better / worse person by doing more good / bad deeds be able to gain a higher spot? Especially so if, let's say, an A Rank becomes S Rank and wants to be apart of the Gods or Horsemen.
- Possible Solutions:
- Note: Not ALL of these are related.
*The obvious, and most simple solution, would be to take out the rule for events. Events are so quick to die and there are already so little of them as-is that there is no way for someone to get these positions without having been on the site for 4+ years. This solution doesn't fix every problem with the Wizard Saint / 11 Sinners positions, but it'd definitely make it more accessable. I advocate for this solution before ALL else in this list first. While combining this with the below would be helpful, if only one solution could get picked I'd definitely choose this one.
*A different, but less effective solution to this problem would be to allow guild events / interguild events to count, so long as the event made an impact on the world around them. If two guilds are having a Barbeque, that won't be viable for applying for Saint / Sinner of course. If Savage Skull, Basilisk Fang, Sabertooth and Black Rose all have some sort of agreement that there'd be this giant interguild war, with the two dark guilds taking sides and the two light guilds taking sides, this could spark some attention, and spread fame and infamy.
*One of the hardest to create solutions would be to create a legal system. As it stands at the moment, there are no laws in place in Fiore. Technically all Dark Guilds are just as light as Legal Guilds, and visa versa. Now most people onsite just simply assume that the real-world laws apply IC... But then that doesn't explain why supposedly "legal" mages go around slaughtering people for the sake of justice. A typed up code of laws would make it so much easier to get these positions, as one could go and enforce these laws while the other goes to directly break them. That being said, I know these laws would be extremely hard to create and take a lot of time, so it might be a farfetched idea.
*A less farfetched idea, but still one to account for, is a Magic Council. Now, the Magic Council have been in effect before... And it was terrible, but I don't mean it as actual PCs. I think that the person grading an application for Wizard Saints should be the "Magic Council" porsay, and do a background check on a person real fast, seeing if they're brutal murderers in their past time. If a person used to be a brutal murderer and they had a change of heart and has never since did anything illegal, they're good. The same goes for Sinners, just the exact opposite. And this actually wouldn't be that hard to pull off unless someone makes it hard. For example, you could make it in the Application for either a simple little section of "What Laws have you Broken?" or "Why you should NOT be a Wizard Saint," for Wizard Saints and obviously "What Laws have you Upheld?" or "Why you should NOT be a Sinner?" These of course require truthfulness of the player, and that's a hard power to uphold, but if you suspect someone is lying you could always go and do a background check. This would be used as a balancing system, as for example if a Dark Mage stopped a petty theif they wouldn't be denied a Sinner position, but if they helped defend the Magic Council (with no evil intent such as "The enemy of my enemy is my friend, I still wanna kill the MC for myself") from an attack then yes they'd be denied it.
*Going along with the idea of a Magic Council, an NPC Magic Council or a PC Magic Council both could work. They have their flaws, yes, but they can work. For example, the NPC Magic Council would be heavily underpowered as the leaders of guilds and jobs and shiz, as well... All NPCs are underpowered unless the player themselves wish to be realistic. That being said, a "Staff Controlled" NPC Magic Council would be also pretty terrible, as events have shown in the past that staff controlling NPCs are, well, horrible. No offense to anyone, of course, I just mean the act of controlling a NPC would not succeed due to personal lives, staff work, and your own personal RPs. However, assuming that someone COULD indefinitely control a NPC Magic Council (which is near impossible, I know), then this would be the most optimal as we have a non-underpowered non-PC controlled Magic Council to... Do MC shiz... Whatever that is... Anyways, PC controlled Magic Council has failed before simply because people get inactive, kill off their character, switch allignments, yada yada yada. If, let's say on the very very very off chance we found a bunch of PCs that would keep their character indefinitely, not change allignments, etc, the Magic Council IC could function. They could create laws for the guilds, they can be updated on current events, etc. etc. But the whole thing is that IRL or OoC affairs constantly gets involved with the IC world, which makes it not function. For example, if I'm apart of the MC and leave the site, why would my character suddenly poof from the MC? There'd be no explanation for it and therefore make no sense IC, but we can't enforce the character staying on the MC because there is no one to RP them.
*Make the WS / SoF as they are: RS / CS 2.0 (3.0 if you're taking into account Gods and Horsemen). Use the same grading process as you do in the Coming Storm / Rising Star applications. Make sure someone has had character interaction, done a bunch of jobs to spread fame / infamy, and remain active. Just upscale the margin to not make the 11S / WS as easy to get as the CS / RS positions. Having so many barriers for a position that shouldn't be that hard to get if someone just, well, RPs someone who would get that position is unnecessary difficulty, especially so when getting the CS / RS positions are so (comparitively) easy.
*Going off of the above, another way to give the position would be to give those RS / CS that reach A rank a "freeby" on Saint and Sinner positions. Since they were good enough to reach the Rising Stars or Coming Storms, they've already proven that they have the fame and notice of the MC, so they could easily just be appointed the position once they reach proper rank. This of course brings problems of "once the positions get full and another RS reaches A Rank," but the "freeby" could easily just be put on hold. Meaning once a position opens up, they can hop in. The same type of freeby can be applied to the Horsemen / Gods, as once a normal SoF or WS reaches S rank they can move on up. The same type of "delayed freeby" could be applied if the S rank positions are filled, and another A rank reaches S rank. Once a position opens up, they get first dibs on diving in. This type of solution would actually give more incentive to wanting to become a RS / CS, and prove your IC worth. That way once you rank up you can be appointed a higher position, then a higher one, then a higher one, etc. And it also makes it not only more difficult to apply for a WS / SoF position without being a RS / CS, but it would also give more satisfaction and gratification if they actually do get the position.
*Another suggestion would be to make stealing slots more available without PvP, and don't make it that once someone takes another's spot, the one who got theirs stolen from them gets erased from the board. If one person deals a lot more good deeds and has more recognition with the Magic Council than number One of the Gods of Ishval, number One doesn't vanish entirely. Wouldn't he/she just be... Moved to number 2? Just a thought as a lot of people are turned off of the idea of PvP, so doing a sort of "Position Shift" without actually taking people off could not only increase competition (i.e more people would wanna do more IC good / bad plots), but those that get beaten out by someone else wouldn't need to be removed entirely. Now, if for plot purposes someone wants to remove someone from their throne at the top of the Gods / Horsemen and does challenge them to a fight, and the loser agrees to just giving up their spot as a whole and not doing a "Position Shift," I would say go do that. The more plot / story the better.
*Finally, my last solution is to set a "Point System" that I've actually spoke about in a previous suggestion regarding WS and SoF. However, this time I have it much more refined as I've given it a lot of thought. This "Point System" and list of requirements for getting not only Saint and Sinner positions, but also Star and Storm positions could look something like this:
11 Sinners of Fiore Requirements:
Seven Deadly Sins:
1- Be A Rank
2- Have at least (X) completed non-job topics with different characters to show character interaction
3- Have 75 Points
4- Have (Y) completed non-job topics where you're spreading infamy, which would be determined by the staff to be sufficient or not
4 Horsemen:
1- Be S Rank
2- Have at least (X, higher than SDS) completed non-job topics with different characters to show character interaction
3- Have 100 Points
4- Have (Y, greater than SDS) completed non-job topics where you're spreading infamy, which would be determined by the staff to be sufficient or not
The point system would be something where jobs give you points towards fame / infamy if you do a Dark or Light job of different ranks. The points would NOT correlate with the EXP of the job. That means those that wish to get 11S or 10WS would not just "Powergrind with double EXP jobs," as they'd take the time to spread their fame / infamy through good / evil jobs. So my idea for the point system would look like this:
D Rank - 1 Point
C Rank - 5 Points
B Rank - 10 Points
A Rank - 20 Points
S Rank - 25 Points
10Y - 30 Points
100Y- 50 Points
Now the requirements of getting the positions could vary or be tweaked by staff of course. Maybe they want Horsemen to require 150 points or maybe less, but regardless the premise is there. And note that not just "doing jobs" would suffice, they'd have to be jobs of the allignment you're upholding. If you want WS, you have to have 75 points of Light jobs. Neutral Jobs would only count if you have a significant good / evil presence in the job. Playing Tag, for example, wouldn't even count towards the 1 point unless you kill the children in the end or whatever. So Neutral Jobs are not exempt, but Staff should be able to grade your lawful / evil presence in Neutral Jobs.
This point system could easily work for RS / CS positions too. Here's an example for Coming Storms:
Coming Storm Requirements:
1- Be D-B rank
2- Have at least (X, lower than SDS) completed non-job topics to show character interaction
3- Have 50 points
4- Have (Y, lower than SDS) completed non-job topics where you're spreading infamy, which would be determined by the staff to be sufficient or not
If the points for jobs are too high or too low, or the point requirement for getting the positions would be too high or too low, it would be an easy adjustment. Not to mention this point system could go really well with the above suggestion of a "position shift," as with more points comes a higher position. I personally think this would be the best course of action for applying for the positions, that way people have concrete knowledge as to what they have to do to gain these positions. I advocate for this solution above ALL else in this list first. The suggestion about the events is the least I could ask for, but IMO this solution is the best course of action, and if I could choose from any of these I would go for.
- Personal Thoughts and Opinions:
- IMO, these positions are highly unappreciated for a number of reasons. Not only are they near impossible to get as things stand at the moment, people don't seem to even care for them as plot devices. The Wizard Saints and the Sinners of Fiore are recognized as the top of the top in terms of Mages, so I would personally think a lot of people would be wanting these positions. This makes your character recognized amongst everyone as a dogooder or a ne'erdowell, and could give you more presence to your allies as well as enemies. However, the way I see it, as things are right now the positions are nowhere near worth the effort, because there is no way to achieve them at the moment. These positions are valuable, but no one can see the value in them due to a facade of a terrible and impossible method to obtain.
Just a thought as I'm writing this up, and a question to anyone who can answer:
Why are legal mages attracted more to RS / WS than dark mages to CS / 11S?
I'm just now noticing this, tbh. There are significantly less applicants for the Dark Positions than there are for the light ones. Is it because there are less Dark Guilds? Less Dark Mages? Dark Mages don't care? Legal Mages have boners for fame? I can't understand.
And there's my occasional 3 month 2 cents. I'm not expecting anyone to follow and advocate for my personal views on solutions and problems, but I do hope that this suggestion brings attention to the, as they are at the moment, lackluster positions.
