Usergroup control?

I'll keep it short and sweet; I think that GMs should be the group leader of their groups on the legend. Not Seijin, no hate! I honestly think it'd be more efficient and productive to give GMs control of their own usergroup so they can add members at their request, or remove them without requesting it of an administrator. Most GMs are active and log on frequently, have Skypes/Discord of which you can contact them, and take the time to even review a character enlisting in their ranks. It'd be a faster way to add members to their groups if the GM themselves could add them.

1. "By doing this, it can be abused and/or used irresponsibly."
Juuuuuust to rule out this argument, no. I am 99% sure that by giving GMs this power back, it will hardly ever be abused. And you can't really consider it a problem since it hasn't been given a chance yet. New guilds have been made, with their GMs having a good history with staff and the forums. I think that by knowing these people over time, that is a plentiful reason to trust them with this power! (P.S, any system can be abused. Which is why we make rules to enforce so that can happen as little as possible!)

Thankies!

Well, it was given a chance.
Heero had permission to add/remove people from the group.
Someone thought about leaving Fairy Tail for IC reasons.
Heero threw a fit and removed the user prematurely.

Because Heero did that, it set a precedence of what COULD potentially happen.
SO to avoid that abuse, the control was taken away from the GMs.

I personally don't want to see it come back for that very reason. People CAN get angry and make rash decisions. I would rather that not happen.

Why is it that because Heero broke that system, that it is ruined for everyone else? That is one example, I don't think that one rotten apple should spoil the bunch. No hate, Papa Ana, but Heero is known for that stuff. (Sorry Heero ;-;)

It doesn't matter.
It simply shows that people aren't mature enough (as a group) to handle that kind of responsibility.

:shame: T...The suggestions still stands!

Then let me give you a thought experiment.

Let's say that the admin does allow it to happen.

And a GM abuses the ability to control a usergroup by kicking people they don't like OOC?
What would the administration do? Find a new GM? Fine. Let's say they find a new GM.
And another GM from another guild does that as well? What would the admin do then? Replace THAT GM?

I know I'm invoking the slippery slope argument, but you have to realize that in order for this site to run smoothly and efficiently, certain things MUST be done so people aren't like "Well, screw that then" and leave the site entirely. It is a necessary evil so things don't have the potential to get out of hand and to make sure there is proper control over guilds.

Well nid makes a good point, and so does ana, so can we come in the middle? Perhaps we give this control also to staff that have shown that they can keep their emotions in check and know how to deal with emotions they can't control(along with the ones who currently do so), and have them add/remove people from the user group. They do something rash? Take away the responsibility and never let them have it again. I imagine this can be done with the current GM's too, give them one chance and if they mess up don't give them a second chance. They gripe about losing their ability to add people? Their fault for lack of control when they know they are suppose to have it.

And, exactly, what is to be gained by giving GMs the ability to give usergroups?

The ability for someone to be in multiple guild usergroups at a time? Please explain to me the actual benefits and cons to doing this.

All right, good and bad of also giving GM's usergroup access(adding/removing people).

Good
-Adding people can be done quicker and members can rp faster in their guilds(like intro topics)
-If admins are the only ones responsible for this then this can reduce things they may have to do daily on the site, giving more time for other things
-Can help in cleaning out banned/dead accounts in a group

Bad
-Incidents where others do something rash like removing someone prematurely can happen
-Can be cases to where a member is added to two user groups, which can create loopholes in systems
-GM's can be lazy and ignore this responsibility
-Can potentially add more workload to a GM, which may make it harder for them to do other things
-GM's can grow angry over loss of this, and may start to purposely sabotage/hurt others on the site

Of course I do have some solutions to the bad I have listed
1. Again, give them this and tell them and make sure they know they only have one chance with this. They screw it up then they lose it.
2. Admin's should still be responsible for this, as they should look over user groups to make sure double adding is not there and handle requests for user group changes after a period of time(say three days?)
3. If GM's as a whole are proved to be unreliable to trust with this, then at least give it to other members of staff that can be trusted to keep their emotions in check. They lose control, and they lose their ability to manage usergroups.
4. Admittedly if a GM/staff grows angry over their loss and starts to hurt/sabotage on purpose, then they should be removed from their position. And if the guild is unable to find another GM, then the guild may be temporarily closed down until a GM is found. Not a ideal solution of dealing with that but the only one I can think of. But given how GM's are reviewed prior to being chosen to make sure they don't have a chance of acting out like that, then I think the possibility of that happening is very low.

I believe the goal of giving user group access to either other staff or GM's is to help keep rpers flowing going into or leaving guilds and shift workload around to help those that could be overburdened.

I need a better reason then "Heero did bad so we can't have nice things." Heero isn't a Guild Master anymore, and that was the only abuse that could be listed ever. Punishing individual GMs who abuse it as cases come up(which they won't, not often anyway) instead of prematurely punishing every GM that ever has or ever will exist just makes more sense.

Guildmasters are some of our most revered and respective members; they can handle this. In fact I can name two guild masters in this thread who have been trusted with modship already as just an example of how reliable Guildmasters are. That is not to mention the guild so blessed as to have an admin for a GM; which opens some questions about fairness. So let's just avoid that conversation by doing the simplest and easiest thing in the world: let GMs do what should reasonably be their job.

TL;DR:
-We can trust our GMs
-Faster usergroup acceptance means people can get in the game faster
-If people get in the game faster our new user retention will shoot way up
-#WandsOutForHakobe

Honestly, even if GMs weren't to be able to get it, why not mods? They're already the ones that approve character apps, so why not let them plop the characters they approve in their appropriate usergroup upon approval?

Kirahunter wrote:I need a better reason then "Heero did bad so we can't have nice things." Heero isn't a Guild Master anymore, and that was the only abuse that could be listed ever. Punishing individual GMs who abuse it as cases come up(which they won't, not often anyway) instead of prematurely punishing every GM that ever has or ever will exist just makes more sense.

Guildmasters are some of our most revered and respective members; they can handle this. In fact I can name two guild masters in this thread who have been trusted with modship already as just an example of how reliable Guildmasters are. That is not to mention the guild so blessed as to have an admin for a GM; which opens some questions about fairness. So let's just avoid that conversation by doing the simplest and easiest thing in the world: let GMs do what should reasonably be their job.

TL;DR:
-We can trust our GMs
-Faster usergroup acceptance means people can get in the game faster
-If people get in the game faster our new user retention will shoot way up
-#WandsOutForHakobe

If I'm one of those guild master, I did not get modship because I was GM or vice versa. I was a mod before GMship and only received it because Heero likes me and he had planned to give it to me beforehand anyway, it just ended up being rushed due to his inactivity and the GMship vote. I also became mod when I was just a new member to the site, so... I don't think I'm that great of an example.

Admins do not add new members right away either because admins do not do the work that mods do. They add the colors when the characters have been approved and mods have sent the request in for the guild change.

New members should also know they can rp right away after approval and are not forced to wait for their guild color to post anything. The only thing they do not have access to is the guild board of their designated guild and will just have to wait until they get colored in order to access it.

Ana's modship is also not the reason he had gotten control of Black Sails/Garou Knights.

So, using us two mods as an example is... not a smart idea.

With that being said, I quote this.

Marceline Anicetus wrote:

What I can agree with, however, is allowing GMs to have moderator control (such as locking, stickying, moving, announcing) topics in their own guild. That, I'll be fine with since it'll be confined to 1 small section of the board.

I'm not saying you guys became GMs because you were Mods or vise versa. That's not the point. The point is you are both respectable members of the community and your dual status is evidence of that. Guild Master is maybe the communities most respected title, excluding staff positions, it carries weight IC and OOC. If the most highly revered non-staff members of the player base can't be trusted with something as harmless as coloring, well I have to say that's fairly insulting to all players. I respect that you are trying to maintain order as best you can. But this is not order, this is something else entirely. I don't know why the staff thinks this is so important, but I implore you to relax. This is just a real easy quality of life fix, everything will just run a bit smoother for everyone with this suggestion.

Let us make your life easier! Let us make our lives easier. You are all only making this harder then it has to be. Admins need not micromanage everything, and this is just a real easy relief for them.

If it doesn't work we can go back to the old way, fine. But I feel our community, now four years old, has earned itself a little trust. Enough at least to give this a fair shot.

OK...with that out of the way.

1. I was just messing around with Nadarr, and kicked him out 3 times. Sure at times it seemed like we were super serious, but we weren't. He just panicked when I first did it because he thought I was serious. We had countless adventures before AND after this occurrence.  :lol!:

2. I shouldn't have repeatedly kicked him out, even though he was cracking up on Skype the entire time.

3. Even though I had a bit of fun with the GM powers, I was an exceptional GM. I only added people when they specifically asked me too in the CBOX, or directly through PMs. I have on record, several staff members asking me to "stop adding people early" before they had an approved character. My natural response as you would guess is, well isn't that just saving time if they already want to be in the guild? The responses I got were "still wait". So the hammer was coming down back when I was bringing Fairy Tail back into power.

4. Without beating around the bush, Staff Members should not be able to be Guild Masters in my opinion.

5. The Magic Council needs to be revived and opened as a separate group like the Wizard Saints with the 5 Chairs of the Council available for PCs to apply for. This is a usergroup OUTSIDE of the Guilds that the staff can manage. "Wizard Saints, Sinners, Magic Council Positions" should be the only "membership" that the Staff themselves have any say in, and even THEN it should be the members IC who decide "who a sinner is and what a sinner is" or "who is a saint in our eyes", it should not be entirely up to the Staff even then. And if it is, the IC opinion of the person in question should be weighed more heavily than the Staffs personal opinion on THEM. Which happens far to often in my opinion.

6. We have a huge imbalance right now. The majority of the power to make anything happen rests solely in the hands of the Staff. As Marceline pointed out herself, most of the Guild Masters are Staff Members and vice versa. This creates a HUGE problem, as Guilds no longer do their own thing. Just merely "what the staff wants". At this point the Admins / Staff could literally plot an entire Guild War in the Staff Chat with only 3 Guilds being left out of the loop.

7. As Kira said, being able to add new members to Guilds on your own increases activity. Trust me, I know a thing or two about running a Guild.

8. Stop using me as a Scapegoat, I personally developed more than half of the systems and locations on this site. And I would never be malicious to anyone. As a matter of fact, I have either approved, helped, or ushered in quite a few people in this topic at one point or another. Whether that be IC or OOC. You guys have to take responsibility for the state of the site, I'm no longer a Staff Member, or a Guild Master, just another member along for the rodeo at this point. Even though I am one of the original developers of the site. And if I was a Staff Member, things would sure as hell be a lot different. Because I'd be opening up new PC positions like crazy.

9. There needs to be something done about the Staff's control of things. A new system that let's Guilds fight one another, the Magic Council re-opening. Something. We used to have all out battles, and grand happenings here, now---it feels honestly like you guys have a stranglehold on everything, creativity included. Having to check with you guys on everything from new members to a Guild, to Magic, to checking if something is "OK" to do IC; is time consuming and frankly not fun for anyone!

10. Let's all start to have fun again without the angst. Restore the power to the GMs to add members @Aiyana. Even when I had the power, everything went smoothly except for the one situation with Nadarr, which was just me messing with him anyways.

11. I was the Admin in charge once, and the site didn't explode by me letting GMs control who was and wasn't in their Guild. That's not really...the Staffs business anyways.

12. The Staff should not Control the Guilds. Every Staff Member who's a GM should at this moment consider passing the title along to another member who isn't on the Staff. Spin it IC however you want, but it would be a cool gesture to the members. Too much control is bad.

13. Love yal.

P.S - Also, I am on pretty damn good terms with the Staff now, this was not a problem starter. Just consider keeping things separate like we used too. TacticalFallacy was one of the greatest Moderators ever, and helped me develop this place back in the day.

He was D-Ranked, and barely RPed. But he was smart, and could grade even H-Ranked apps.

I'm asking for us to reconsider what qualifies someone to be a moderator and an Admin. Our current Staff is pretty friggin awesome, but mad overworked.

The Guilds and Staff need to become separate, and the Magic Council needs to be it's own Usergroup with it's own plots and devices like it used to be. If these 2 things happen, everything will fix itself.

Huh? This isn't about you.

Personally, I love Kanix as a GM. But everyone's experience in different Guilds can be different. If you feel like you can balance it, great XD, but the point is we should try to keep GM Positions and Staff Positions separate, so members can feel more enthused and in control of their IC destinies.

I was referring to the responsibilities of a Staff Member ALONG with being a GM. One of the main reasons Fairy Tail flourished is because I didn't have the responsibilities of a Staff Member to go along with the ones that came with being a GM and could focus more on the members of my Guild, site activity, and event participation and creation. It's all just advice, for not just You but all Staff / Guild Masters in the same boat. A few GMs have quit the Staff and retained their GM title in the past and it went absolutely great (for the Guilds in question), due to accelerated GM attention in threads, on Skype, and in the CBOX. Without all the Staff stuff holding em down.

Uh, the only "lack of RP experience" I referenced was that TacticalFallacy didn't RP much yet he was a great Moderator on this site for years. So....what?

OK, my point is that you cannot give your all in one area.

To Fairy Tail.

Or to the Staff.

If you have to give your all to both simultaneously, then you're only giving 50 / 50 right? The same could be said of any other Staff / GM in your position. Just look at all Shuhei and I accomplished as non staff members for Fairy Tail and Blue Pegasus. That's because our attention was entirely devoted. Just trying to be helpful.