Forceful change

So, I wanted to say this a while ago, and never got around to it because I was busy with some other things. So I’mma say this now. Whoever wrote our current consumption guide should feel bad if they were a slayer, or be prevented from messing up more stuff if they weren’t. What do I mean? Well, let’s start from the fact that it’s now impossible for a slayer to legitimately use force now. If someone plot forces they get laughed at pretty much

What am I proposing? Going back to the old force rules where it was based on the size of the mass being eaten. I saw that old system, and guess what? It wasn’t OP, and it was balanced. When it was changed, it was a baseball bat to the side of most slayers. With the number of elemental mages out there dropping, and the ones who aren’t are adding clauses that slayers can’t eat their element is making it less likely that a slayer can get it legitimately, thus being forced to BS force, and thus having to be worried about a mod possibly calling you on it, and thus try nulling the thread.

“Oh, but what about light and sky slayers? They’ll be overpowered with this” No. Feel bad for looking for an excuse to toss this out. In the old systems, for sky slayer to eat massive amounts of air, he had to go high into the air to get a massive amount, and Light slayers were restricted to 5% per post.

The main issue here is that the amounts were ridiculous. When are you ever going to eat a 'moon sized' amount of it.
Its also more canon in this case as 'fire' is not the same as 'magical fire'. Its been intense amounts of magical fire that have triggered force for Natsu in the past.

I believe the force rules are fine as they are. However, I believe that we should add the concept of 'training' to the force rules so people can train to access it more easily e.g. Natsu and Wendy have been shown to trigger it at will.


The mass rules also never took rank into account or the magical power.

For example eating an 's rank spell' had the same amount of MP restoration for every rank despite the massive difference in people's magic pools.

If anything the two systems should be combined somehow.

Again Zack, I don't know why you took it upon yourself to change my old system. It was way more balanced than the one you replaced it with. This one is terrible.

-Eat for 5 posts in a row
-Eat to Max
-Eat Beyond Max (All the way up to 150%? That is stupid....)


(Then Force?)

Wtf No.

The old rules were if you ate your element for 5 posts in a row regardless of how or how much of it, you would go into Force. Since your opponent CLEARLY gives no fucks about it, or you being a Slayer. Or your environment is just suited to you.

Just like in the show, if you eat some gigantic enchantment of your element. You should be in Dragon Force / God Force / Demon Force.

Do not call out canon, as in canon. If you eat a large amount of fire, or non-magical fire. You still will receive MP or go into Force. Guess what. The old system did THAT too. A Water Dragon Slayer could eat a normal lake and fuck you up if you let them.

"Lake Sized" was one of the amounts. But then again who stands there and lets a Water Slayer eat an entire lake, that takes awhile as it spins around and gets swallowed up. It was balanced.

Yea, Zack an S-Ranked spell restored a set amount because  GUESS WHAT. A set amount of Magic was put into the enchantment, and if it's an S-Ranked fire spell; it's a huge amount of fire or magic energy most likely.

Point blank, I agree with Kolt. You guys ruined something that didn't need to be messed with. I designed that system to the T.

Wtf are you talking about, didn't take Rank into account???

I literally had a list that had.

- Spells Below your Rank: _______

- Spells of Equal Rank: _________

- Spells of A-Ranked and Beyond: ________

Also it had things like

- A car sized amount: _________

All of this was in the original Slayer consumption Guide that I wrote for Seijin. So don't dare sit there and say it didn't take Rank into account or otherwise take shots at me. Anyways, people want to do what they want, and not what's best for the site.

I agree with Heero and Kolt on this, the guide right now is way to hard to reach force espically for a slayer like myself with a rare element like poison, though the prospect of training to be able to trigger force on command is a interesting and good idea.

Sol wrote:I agree with Heero and Kolt on this, the guide right now is way to hard to reach force espically for a slayer like myself with a rare element like poison, though the prospect of training to be able to trigger force on command is a interesting and good idea.

Technically with these existing rules you'd gain the same amount of MP with a tiny drop of venom as you would swallowing down an entire lake's worth.   (5%)

Spells of A rank and beyond was a set amount.

A D rank absorbing an S rank spell(somehow) should restore a larger 'percentage' of their MP then a B rank mage absorbing the same amount. That was my point. It took the rank of the spell into account, but not the rank of the mage.

Also your rules were '25%MP of your element for five posts' not just 'five posts' as far as I recall.

Also why are you blaming me? The system was changed from yours by someone else (Kihia I believe) to one that was really weird and mathy. I was part of the change to this one, but not the whole thing. Do not blame me for everything. People critcised some of your systems. We tried to fix them based on that critique and our own opinions. You are not perfect. Your systems were not perfect. Otherwise we would not of had complaints about them. Now stop blaming me. I am merely expressing my opinion. If you can't take criticism without snapping then you are not worth paying attention to. I admit there are flaws in what we have done. I do not claim they are perfect.

I still think that a middle ground would be better. Just eating fire seems to 'revitalise' a character. Whereas eating an intense 'magical source' of the magic seems to trigger force. However, I realise this doesn't work on site and makes it near impossible to enter force (though i'm quite hating anti-slayer accounts purely because what's the point unless you plan to PVP against slayers). However, rather than just claiming 'mine is better than yours so let's go back to that' how about you consider the reasons why it was made the way it was and come up with a system that takes in the best of both worlds?

As in for 'magical sources' it factors in rank of magic and rank of eater
For non-magical sources it factors in size of source and rank of eater.

Its not going to be 'super simple' but its also not going to be mega complex either,


One thing i'd like to eliminate though was the bias against light and sky slayers. That was just a bit odd to me. I know it was for balance but it didn't make sense IC wise. This is a story based site after all.

I am happy to accept critique providing that critique is constructive rather than 'yours is terrible, mine was better. Go back to mine'

Never mentioned that I was perfect Zack. You however, did say the word Perfect 3 or 4 times.

I just said the one that you guys replaced mine with was horrible. Stop acting like there was a site wide outcry to change it. It was randomly changed, there was no site vote or pull for it.

You guys were a new staff itching to change something (in my opinion) and didn't think it all the way through man. There's no harm in that. People didn't criticize, but I guess the Staff talking amongst themselves are people too. I was active during this time, no one was really complaining about it dude.Take criticism...wow. Zack I have watched some of the things I created get absolutely bashed to hell and redone, only to be gone back too. While I silently just stood by and didn't say a word. Time and time again. Yet you get riled up at the sheer mention of being wrong. Trust me I can take criticism. Sorry for coming off as rude. But you post more in OOC topics like this than you do IC. I don't know why or whether it's some weird power thing you can't let go of, but it was better when you posted IC more.

---------------------------

On Topic:

No, there's no difference. Just based on volume and Rank of Spell. That's all.

Why do you care so much about Rank? Wtf. That is NOT a thing in the show or manga or canon and Rank of Slayer was excluded from my system for the exact stuff you're talking about man.

If you're D and you eat an S-Ranked Spell. You definitely can go into Force. A colossal, tidal wave of fire the size of Paris, France. Gets eaten? And you can't go Force? Bullshit lmao.

That's why the old rules are better. Set amounts for things, based on size or rank of Spell. Even a 10 year old Dragon Slayer, raised by Grandine could eat a giant tornado of wind NO PROBLEM.

I miss the days of seeing a D-Ranked Slayer go into Force if his back was against the wall and he had a chance too.

If you sit there and let and Earth Slayer eat an entire mountain over five posts, then you deserve to get Forced. Whether the mountain was non-magical or magical.

Also, Light Slayers can only eat at daytime for free 5% MP. Sky Slayers also can do this, but only when letting their guard completely down because they have to inhale the air from high altitude down to them on the ground. Or fly up high for around and do nothing but eat.

Anyway, I'm done with this discussion for now. But Zack is right a new system could be created, I personally think we should lean back towards the old one. Since I made it alongside Zeno, and a few others. It was very balanced. But if a new system is created, rank of slayer has to be excluded and there needs to be set amounts of MP restored for set sizes of elements and things you eat. That's all.

We did not 'itch' to change anything.
I am not pretending there was a site wide outcry about the systems.
I am saying that some people using the systems raised points to us and we took into account those points. They still do raise points to me (or in conversation i'm apart of) and so the site is flawed in their eyes. They have raised these points themselves but been ignored even when the points they make are valid. So i'll raise them myself. They might not be something that effects everyone but it effects some and that's enough. I've seen three seperate conversations on HP regen for example. Its been a topic for months and yet nothing has been done.

So far Heero you have said everything negative about every system that the staff at the time modified from your own without mentioning any positives whatsoever. Its just 'what you introduced is horrible and what I did was so much better and 'fit the site to a t' (which suggests perfect though I might be misunderstanding you).' You've even said in a thread that the entire admin team when I was admin 'couldn't hold a candle to you'. Not the admin team you were on. Specifically you. However, I do admit a lot of your systems were great. They were the bases for a lot of what we worked on. However, sometimes change is necessary. Things evolve over time and sometimes those changes go wrong. That's bad when that happens, but its always possible. There are plenty of fixes to be done on site still. Not by me, but still they need to be made. The site was in a shambles after some admins in the past left and its a bit better now, but still not great.

However, this is not a topic for arguing about this or debating this and it seems like no matter what points we make we will both just butt heads so let's ignore the whole argument and just debate this topic and not what was in the past.

Also as a note the reason I'm not IC as much is because everytime I have done IC recently it has died out or gone stupid. Rising Tides, Priory of the Wyrm, my entire team dissapearing on me, members of my guild who I had plot prepared with leaving etc. It has killed a lot of my muse. I have a lot of muse when it comes to creating characters and magic, but not so much for rping. Mostly because I feel the site limits me too much in certain areas or doesn't explain somethings well enough so I put up suggestions to try to resolve that. Is that wrong of me to do so?

Most of the people I actually gave a damn about rping with on site have left. Sometimes due to issues on the site or issues with people on the site. So if I can help improve the site in any way, shape or form with my suggestions so that others don't leave...then I will. I don't expect my suggestions to be listened to all the time. I'd at least like the benefit of the doubt though on it. However, you should see some IC stuff from me soon. I'm trying not to get involved in too much at once though as I have a lot of real life commitments and a fucking stressful job and home life plus changes i'm making and considering making to myself IRL. Perhaps I snap too much and take it out on people on site and for that I'm sorry.

-------
Now back to the topic at hand:

I am merely saying there are merits in both systems. The old one had merits and so does the new one.



I had reasons for mentioning rank. Whilst it is not as important now because the rank divide is far less it is still an important factor.

Rank is not a thing in the show(with exception of missions and the mythical S rank), but it is a thing on site that effects how much one can do quite a lot. What jobs you can do, how powerful a spell you can cast, what perks you have, how much spells costs etc. Thus I make the point:

We have seen in canon that mages of greater power have much larger magic pools. This can include second origin which is 'vast source of magic'. This is why casting lower rank spells becomes cheaper as you rank up and why you can access stronger spells (or it might just be that you have refined greater control of your magic). However, if we take it as the first point in that your magic pool is greater....then

If a D rank eats an S rank spell they should restore a lot more MP then an A rank doing the same.

Also, I too liked being able to use force when your back was against a wall. That was cool. However, with the system how it was for sky and light slayers this was practically impossible. How is that fair? Sure their resource is more abundant but to a clever mage so is water and earth is pretty much everywhere. Yet they don't have the same drawbacks.

I admit force is currently near impossible to acheive. However, saying that this makes the entire system horrible is I think a gross overstatement.

That make sense? It does to me, but I might be misunderstanding things on how this works.

Honestly, I'm gonna have to agree in the idea of mixing the two systems into a new balanced one. Of course, both sides would say one is better than the other, but honestly the idea of mixing what's here now with what there was could end up being even simpler and better off for everyone.

True that, my bad. Q_Q

One side of me thinks that slayers already get quite a bit of benefits while the other side of me believes that reaching force is relatively awful with the current system. With the current system, it seems nigh impossible. So I would like to make a suggestion on how to change it:

Force Consumption
If a slayer consumes their chosen element, they gain FP (Force Points) which go towards allowing the user to obtain Force. Unlike the previous version, there is no time limit.

User Consumes Natural Resource: 1 FP (per post)
User Consumes D Rank Spell: 1 FP
User Consumes C Rank Spell: 2 FP
" " B Rank Spell: 3 FP
" " A Rank Spell: 4 FP
" " S Rank Spell: 5 FP
*The user may only consume 1 spell of their element per post.
Once a user reaches 25 FP, they are allowed to enter Force.
Once Force has been entered, the FP resets back to zero.

Controlled Force
A user may write a 4000 word RP on how to control their Force. By doing this, they unlock Controlled Force. When using Controlled Force, the user may enter Force at any time, however, the user's Force duration is cut in half.

Just figured that would be quick and easy change.

I'm good with that Ana. Just remove the bit about only being able to consume one Spell per post. That's silly. If they wanna keep chucking Water Spells at the Water God Slayer or Water Dragon Slayer after they realize what they are...then yea.

So if someone launches 3 A-Ranked spells at you, once you start inhaling they will break apart and spin into your mouth. Doesn't matter how many spells someone launches at you, you can eat em all if they are your element.

Otherwise; badass FP system. Increase each by 1 FP I'd say. Here's my amended version since I like it so much XD.

Force Consumption
If a slayer consumes their chosen element, they gain FP (Force Points) which go towards allowing the user to obtain Force. Unlike the previous version, there is no time limit.

User Consumes Natural Resource: 1 FP

User Consumes Large or Unlimited Amount of Natural Resource: 5 FP per post if uninterrupted.

User Consumes D Rank Spell: 2 FP
User Consumes C Rank Spell: 3 FP
" " B Rank Spell: 4 FP
" " A Rank Spell: 5 FP
" " S Rank Spell: 6 FP

Once a user reaches 20 FP, they are allowed to enter Force.
Once Force has been entered, the FP resets back to zero.

Controlled Force
A user may write a 4000 word RP on how to control their Force. By doing this, they unlock Controlled Force. When using Controlled Force, the user may enter Force at any time, however, the user's Force duration is cut in half. Dropping from 7 posts to 4 posts.

The only reason I made it once per post was because you don't take any damage from said spell, which is a powerful effect all on it's own, let alone also having it feed into Force Consumption. I mainly only did it for the sake of balance and so people don't reach Force in the first post because someone abused an NPC.

Err Ana, I don't know where you got that from. Depending on the rank, you still take damage from the spells that you try to consume. Slayer rules -> Consumption -> Magic of your element. It describes the damage you take there. So being able to consume 1 spell per post is rather limiting for no reason

Now this is an interesting system and one that I can get behind though I'm still not sure about player rank not being taken into account. However, this certainly works for force and we can keep the MP restoration rules as they are I think.

I can't remember if there is a cooldown for force in general, but for controlled force there should be otherwise they can come out of it and go straight into it. Unless we are making force a once per thread sort of thing?

I like the idea of a Force Pool for Slayers. As it as, being an Earth Slayer every post or so that my character isn't in combat he is eating stones or clumps of earth. That being said I think having the Force Pool makes total sense. I'd suggest being able to go into Force Twice a thread if someone does the training but no limits to those who don't do the training considering there is a chance someone who hasn't done the training could be looking at 25 posts before they could access force. Or if your looking for another alternative for Force Cool Down I would also suggest that a cool down equal to rank for Slayers. I.E. D ranks would need a three post cool down, C would need 4, and so on and so fourth. The reasoning is that lower ranked characters have less spells and options to use so they should be able to throw weaker spells out faster. Either way Ana I really dig your system and think it would work better.

I'm gonna poke my head in real quick to say I don't think it actually matters... the force rules are there for PvP uses, and if you wanted to achieve force in-job or in-event then you can easily use plot to do so... No mod, at least none I know, has ever seen someone pull force out of their rectum in a job and said "Nope... nope. nopenopenopenopenope, now you shall burn puny man!" and then proceed to come down on said person like the wrath of Cthulu.

And for events, most event bosses are more than happy to plot with the person OOC a way to let them achieve force much easier...

As for PvP... if your opponent is stupid enough to fight their own element's Slayer version, they've already lost that fight... cause all they're doing is feeding that slayer.

This is just my personal input, but please, by all means continue about your discussion.

Well, Niyol the issue is that so many people have built their 'fire magic' so that it can't be eaten by slayers. So slayers who want to go force in PVP have to eat natural sources or something. As such force, as it stands, is impossible.

Also PVP should be no different to PVE. No rule differences. Sure in PVE you could come across 'magical instant force juice' which for plot insta-forces you, but other than that it should follow the same rules. I might be the only one, but I know in jobs I keep track of MP, cooldowns etc to the tee. I'm planning to add HP to that because if I get the shit beaten out of me then I should fail the job.

As for 'trained force' I feel that rather than one training thread allowing for instant force (with cooldowns between) that we should instead perhaps have several training threads(which must be focused on understanding and mastering force). The first might drop the necessary force points needed to enter force by 10%, then the next drops it (from total amount) by 25%, then 50%, then 75% and finally you can enter force at will.

Of course, these training threads could all be done at once, but having it divided into 'those can go into instant force' and 'those who can't go into instant force' seems a bit bleh to me. Those more familiar with force and processing their element to enter it should be able to go into it easier and those who master it should be able to go into it at will.

However, a cooldown (which I think third gens might have) would be good. Perhaps if they 'train' more they can reduce that cooldown or increase the number of instant forces they can enter.