Protecting slayer magics

So this topic is protecting the uniqueness of knowing a slayer magic. I realize in the rules their is nothing against making a magic that incorporates either one of two things; consuming a type of magic or entering force. In fact, I am only making this thread when I have seen the former being used in other non-slayer magics and other apps. The issue is that slayer magic is meant to be unique that it carries two characteristics:

1. The slayer can freely consume the magic of their respective type and regain mana from it.

2.The ability to enter force after an excess of mana is gained.

The issue is if that you can make a magic and have either one of these in it...then it makes the idea of being a slayer rather fruitless doesn't it? I mean these two unique abilities make up a slayer, and if other magics can be made by merely copy and pasting then their is no point to have positions or specific larcimas. So therefore, I do believe it should be a rule that a magic cannot include the unique abilities of a slayer(which are listed above) unless they are using a slayer magic.

Now to those who would argue against this, perhaps this would limit creativity offered in a magic, I am not against that. I am not against the mechanics used that are similar to slayers, I am only against the mere copy and paste of it. This means that if this was made to a new rule, then consumption of spells can still work. However, I think it would be better to limit this consumption or create requirements for this to happen.

For example, a rainbow based mage would have a UA to be able to consume light similar to how slayers can. But, this is limited for the mage, as the light would have to be purely one of the colors of the rainbow. In addition, the mages body would start to glow in a soft hue related to what color of light they recently consumed, a sign of this. What's more, if the user continously consumes light for up to five posts, then the post after they not only lose the ability to consume light for the next five posts, but they also take spell damage equivelent to their rank.

Now the example above is not something that a consumption ability has to be, but I think its a good example of how someone can retain the ability to consume magic without taking uniqueness away from slayers.

I'd like to add on the mass amount of people making their magics inedible to slayers is irking me. But that might just be me.

Fire King Ardere wrote:I'd like to add on the mass amount of people making their magics inedible to slayers is irking me. But that might just be me.

I would like to keep that as a subject for another thread or for this one after the issue I gave is revolved.

"The issue is that slayer magic is meant to be unique"

- vs the 40+ slayers.


"I'd like to add on the mass amount of people making their magics inedible to slayers is irking me. But that might just be me."

Can't imagine why anyone would want their magic invalidated.




Slayer magic does not need to be protected,  it's as common as water and is just another magic as it should be.  Nobody should be superior or be given special privileges or advantages because they paid money to the site for one of the monthly Super-extra-special-unique slayer lacrimas,  donated for God or Demon positions,  or managed to get one of the next-to-never not filled dragon slayer positions.  


Is a magic blatantly a slayer clone?   Sure,  deny it.  But it needs to be a very narrow scope.   
 
It benefits nobody in the end to limit the site so far as to be on the look out for abilities that rub against the slayer archetype,  so long as they aren't trying to occupy the same space.   Unless that somebody is them self a slayer and not interested in slayer magics not being the superest so-speshiul that ever was so-speshiul.


I say all this as someone who has been a slayer twice before and who still has a lacrima sitting around waiting for a reasonable opportunity to be used (Whether because it fits into a character concept finally, or one of those super-extra-fancy "Lacrima Sabers").



Fact of the matter is,  even as-is,  Slayers ARE still special and they ARE still treated as advantaged.  They don't need to be "protected",  because they are very well off already either way.

I'm just gonna throw in here that I was denied adding a magic consumption UA to my non-slayer magic in the past, so im not sure of their really isnt any rules against it.

Kyoden Numata wrote:I'm just gonna throw in here that I was denied adding a magic consumption UA to my non-slayer magic in the past, so im not sure of their really isnt any rules against it.

"Consuming" gets shadily close to slaying so it isn't terrible to disallow it.

Something that repurposes something, absorbs to some extent,  or gains mp in other ways shouldn't be looked at too critically,  as without things like that allowed on non-slayers,  then slayers are blatantly more powerful than any other magic given that they'd be the only magic with rare or at least uncommon exceptions that were allowed here and there based on wording,  approving staff, and some other things.  As other magics would have to rely on MP Regen, which is limited, meanwhile slayers can still have MP regen on top of Consumption.

Eris wrote:"The issue is that slayer magic is meant to be unique"

- vs the 40+ slayers.


"I'd like to add on the mass amount of people making their magics inedible to slayers is irking me. But that might just be me."

Can't imagine why anyone would want their magic invalidated.




Slayer magic does not need to be protected,  it's as common as water and is just another magic as it should be.  Nobody should be superior or be given special privileges or advantages because they paid money to the site for one of the monthly Super-extra-special-unique slayer lacrimas,  donated for God or Demon positions,  or managed to get one of the next-to-never not filled dragon slayer positions.  


Is a magic blatantly a slayer clone?   Sure,  deny it.  But it needs to be a very narrow scope.   
 
It benefits nobody in the end to limit the site so far as to be on the look out for abilities that rub against the slayer archetype,  so long as they aren't trying to occupy the same space.   Unless that somebody is them self a slayer and not interested in slayer magics not being the superest so-speshiul that ever was so-speshiul.


I say all this as someone who has been a slayer twice before and who still has a lacrima sitting around waiting for a reasonable opportunity to be used (Whether because it fits into a character concept finally, or one of those super-extra-fancy "Lacrima Sabers").



Fact of the matter is,  even as-is,  Slayers ARE still special and they ARE still treated as advantaged.  They don't need to be "protected",  because they are very well off already either way.

First, not going to lie, the site does have a lot of slayers on here. The thing is though this site runs it in such a way that it controls the population of them, it's a much better system then what I have seen on other sites(Some sites out-right don't allow slayers or everyone is a slayer). That and if you here on a fairy tail roleplay site, and you are a fan of whats on the show, then most likely you came because of the prospect of becoming a slayer.

Second as I said, I am not against the mechanics that can be seen related to slayers. You want your magic to be able to consume or regain mana from other sources through ways of consumption or different methods? Or you want it so that after you over-store mana you enter an enhanced state? These are fine. What I am against is how their is nothing against the rules of copy and pasting a slayer ability(like freely being able to consume a certain type of magic). Like I said in my example of a consuming ability, it allows consumption but has it's restrictions on it(And it is a specific example that relates to consumption, as you can go different ways with the mechanic based on your magic or achieve the same thing without consuming if balanced right).

And yes I do agree that slayers do have perks ahead of others, but the thing is slayers are treated as special on here(why else have slayer larcimas part of the vip purchases?) And I think because of them being considered special, the two abilities that make slayer magic what it is should be restricted on non-slayer magics.

As a final note; While I think slayer magic is pretty cool, it is not the best magic on here. It does have it's own share of weaknesses that come with it's buffs in which other non-slayer magics compensate better for. But my point is on a site where slayers are, not only limited in their creation, but also treated as their own unique thing, then they need what makes them a slayer protected.

Kyoden Numata wrote:
I'm just gonna throw in here that I was denied adding a magic consumption UA to my non-slayer magic in the past, so im not sure of their really isnt any rules against it.

Not going to lie if the UA did sound like the exact trait consumption of a slayer, then yes in my opinion should be denied. However then if this is not a widely accepted thought with all the staff who are involved in grading, then I think it needs to be put in the rules so that it can be enforced.

Like Eris said slayer are powerful enough not to need protection. Given the mana consumption and psychical boost they should be fine. Even while not ever being a slayer these both seem a rather important thing if ever remembered to be used. However the ability to use magic that is a mimic of the main factors of being a slayer should like you said be closely governed.

Bumping just cause. Also adding the fact that can probably get better elemental res through UA(which is common UA for Elemental Mages) and same with physical. Also wanted to add it is likely to get better spell absorbtion(consumption); not all that its hyped up to be since consumption leaves you quite open.

Zero-sama wrote:Bumping just cause. Also adding the fact that can probably get better elemental res through UA(which is common UA for Elemental Mages) and same with physical. Also wanted to add it is likely to get better spell absorbtion(consumption); not all that its hyped up to be since consumption leaves you quite open.

Just adding to this, not directing it at ya.
Those abilities,  resistance,  physical enhancements,  even absorption.  These are free slayer perks.    They do not cost the slayer anything and are not UAs.   If the slayer wants to increase their resistances or physicality,  they could make a normal UA like anybody else.  Except,  then they'd have the UA and the Perk both, which could easily make slayers outright better than any other physical character depending on who grades them. (Depending on how strict. The perks themselves aren't that big, but would easily make them average out higher)

Slayers are already hugely more varied on this site than they are in the canon,  reaching to other non-slayer themes and abilities.  They're treated as a normal elemental magic here that can do pretty much whatever they feel like doing, what they want to make or do.  There is typically no point at all in making a standard elemental mage because anything they could do a Slayer could do and then some,  whereas there could be reasons in the canon itself that are not valid here.

IF slayers were to be protected at all,  they would have to be very tightly controlled and bound within their own themes,  before thinking about controlling other magics and forcing them out of Slayer's themes.    

That just doesn't sound very fun for anyone and is even more to worry about when making magic.

Fire King Ardere wrote:I'd like to add on the mass amount of people making their magics inedible to slayers is irking me. But that might just be me.

THIS, THIS, THIS..

Blood Plus wrote:

Fire King Ardere wrote:I'd like to add on the mass amount of people making their magics inedible to slayers is irking me. But that might just be me.

THIS, THIS, THIS..

Slayers already have mastery over the natural element,  and the element of NPC mages,  and some PCs.  
If player characters did not do something like that there would be little point to using any element that has a slayer type counterpart and discourage the use of the primary elements in favor of nonstandard elements that do not have a slayer type and non-elemental magic.
It would cripple motivation to make a mage with a normal element if people were forced to get rid of such strengths for their magic meanwhile it really does not hurt the slayers in any way, just gets rid of an overwhelming advantage between two players.


I would suggest though that people at least try to make it make sense to have such a strength.

Eris wrote:

Blood Plus wrote:

Fire King Ardere wrote:I'd like to add on the mass amount of people making their magics inedible to slayers is irking me. But that might just be me.

THIS, THIS, THIS..

Slayers already have mastery over the natural element,  and the element of NPC mages,  and some PCs.  
If player characters did not do something like that there would be little point to using any element that has a slayer type counterpart and discourage the use of the primary elements in favor of nonstandard elements that do not have a slayer type and non-elemental magic.
It would cripple motivation to make a mage with a normal element if people were forced to get rid of such strengths for their magic meanwhile it really does not hurt the slayers in any way, just gets rid of an overwhelming advantage between two players.


I would suggest though that people at least try to make it make sense to have such a strength.

Surely the same can be said the other way around?

Overpowering a strength of Slayer Magic with a strength of your own purely for the sake of countering slayers would cripple motivation to make slayers in the first place?

Blood Plus wrote:
Surely the same can be said the other way around?

Overpowering a strength of Slayer Magic with a strength of your own purely for the sake of countering slayers would cripple motivation to make slayers in the first place?

Most definitely not. Negating one aspect of one strength of one magic in regards only to how it applies only to your own is incomparable to overwhelming an entire magic by nature of who got to stand on the pedestal that is slayer magic.

Slayers are already objectively better without having the ability to negate the magic of others. They're certainly the recipient of special treatments either way.

This is a site with a great many players, all of whom are their own main characters. This site cannot favor any one magic too extremely over the others. Slayers do not need any more exclusivity or regulation than is already in place. Neither do I think they need any restrictions or nerfs.

Keeping in mind that I've possessed slayer magic the majority of my time on this site myself, I have nothing really against slayer magic. I'm just defending a neutral stance here.


Having a strength to prevent slayers eating your magic does not disadvantage the slayer in any way, it only prevents a massive advantage that would not be present against any other type of mage and would still be present against any others like it even in the same battle who did not possess that counter strength.

My point was the widespread use of such an effect. I wasn't against the idea entirely, I just find too many people are making their magics inedible, and often for half-assed reasons. 

Imo PvE means jackshit ok. xD You dont need Force or eating to regain mp in PvE, you can bs your way through it anyways. Slayer advantages dont mean shit in PvE, but in PvP it does. The reason you have to pay for 2/3 of the slayers and apply for the damn magic is the advantage. I dont think that advantage should be any greater or any less, I just dont want the inedible thing to get out of control. I'm not saying go tell people to stop doing it, just make sure the reasons make sense and it doesn't get out of hand. Otherwise if half the site has inedible magic, it will demotivate people to be slayers in the first place, because the eating is the real reason we pick them anyways. The 10% weak sauce boost is definitely NOT it. xD  Honestly idk why this many people wanna be slayers anyways, the magic itself can be very restrictive, but whatever I suppose. 

Anyways just clarifying my point. 

(We have too many slayers imo anyways, but still)

(Also pretty sure we're not getting anywhere, so perhaps we should close the thread.)

Eris wrote:

Blood Plus wrote:
Surely the same can be said the other way around?

Overpowering a strength of Slayer Magic with a strength of your own purely for the sake of countering slayers would cripple motivation to make slayers in the first place?

Most definitely not.  Negating one aspect of one strength of one magic in regards only to how it applies only to your own is incomparable to overwhelming an entire magic by nature of who got to stand on the pedestal that is slayer magic.

Slayers are already objectively better without having the ability to negate the magic of others.  They're certainly the recipient of special treatments either way.

This is a site with a great many players,  all of whom are their own main characters.   This site cannot favor any one magic too extremely over the others.   Slayers do not need any more exclusivity or regulation than is already in place. Neither do I think they need any restrictions or nerfs.  

Keeping in mind that I've possessed slayer magic the majority of my time on this site myself,  I have nothing really against slayer magic.  I'm just defending a neutral stance here.  


Having a strength to prevent slayers eating your magic does not disadvantage the slayer in any way,  it only prevents a massive advantage that would not be present against any other type of mage and would still be present against any others like it even in the same battle who did not possess that counter strength.

Fire King Ardere wrote:My point was the widespread use of such an effect. I wasn't against the idea entirely, I just find too many people are making their magics inedible, and often for half-assed reasons. 

Imo PvE means jackshit ok. xD You dont need Force or eating to regain mp in PvE, you can bs your way through it anyways. Slayer advantages dont mean shit in PvE, but in PvP it does. The reason you have to pay for 2/3 of the slayers and apply for the damn magic is the advantage. I dont think that advantage should be any greater or any less, I just dont want the inedible thing to get out of control. I'm not saying go tell people to stop doing it, just make sure the reasons make sense and it doesn't get out of hand. Otherwise if half the site has inedible magic, it will demotivate people to be slayers in the first place, because the eating is the real reason we pick them anyways. The 10% weak sauce boost is definitely NOT it. xD  Honestly idk why this many people wanna be slayers anyways, the magic itself can be very restrictive, but whatever I suppose. 

Anyways just clarifying my point. 

(We have too many slayers imo anyways, but still)

(Also pretty sure we're not getting anywhere, so perhaps we should close the thread.)

Although I'm digressing because I agree with Ard in the sense that we're not getting anywhere; what do you mean by the fact that Slayers are objectively better? They're recipients of special treatment purely due to the fact that it's an applicable/payable position.

Secondly, having strengths purely to counteract one type of magic that trumps your own in one aspect purely due to it's mechanics seems unfair to me. Some magics will trump others, that's just how it is, Slayers are limited to their elements and the weaknesses that coincide with that, dragon slayers are limited to the fact that God Slayers and Demon Slayers can consume their magic (should they be of the right element) but to grant someone the ability to completely disregard the strength of another magic just so they avoid the situation of being toppled in the future doesn't seem fair to me.

As I said though, I will digress. We've gone a bit off topic anyway XD.

because the ability to consume and negate an entire concept/element of magic is incredibly powerful and frankly is probably too strong, but it's part of the universe that this site is set in, which means it's okay for it to be around so long as it's somewhat regulated (and is actually expected to be around). It's like having canon Izanagi or Edo Tensei on a Naruto forum, or the canon darkness fruit in One Piece on a forum, it's there but it's incredibly overbearing.

No one wants to fight against someone, or something, that can just make them feel 100% useless, remember this is a writing forum based off, story telling etc. Most of the time if someone makes their magic unable to be consumed, it's because asshats want to try and bully them PvP wise and they want to stand a chance against them without feeling like they are completely screwed because one person got a unique position, and at the same time don't want to be limited by the choices they make for what kind of magic they wish to RP.

A lot of what I see is "I have X and can counter X" rather than "Oh hey if we team up I could eat your stuff and get a boost if we needed it in a pinch, would you like to support me?" it's the same everywhere, it's a competition to see who has the best stuff, but the problem is everyone wants to be main characters, which is fine but can be, again, overbearing.

I honestly hate the concept of a slayer in general, I view them as incredibly overpowered for their base abilities (consuming is still stupid good), but are a bit more restrictive creativity wise, especially since I've seen some apps say they can eat all of their element regardless of circumstances, just to counter the people who don't want to feel useless in the first place!

it doesn't really needs protecting, if anything there are too many slayers, which is fine from the standpoint of people getting more chances to RP potentially what they want to RP, but this whole discussion is dumb. If people didn't give a crap about PvP, no one would even think twice about a slayer being too "underpowered" or "overpowered".

Bottom line is screw PvP. Slayers are fine, people don't want to feel useless against them. This discussion is derpy, my brain hurts, please sthap.

This topic is still going on? That's good, but yeah I agree you guys are starting to go off topic.

Ok so to leave off from my original point of the thread, I don't want the freedom there to be able to simpily copy and paste the abilities that make slayer magic what it is. This is because though I can see a lot going wrong with this freedom with how it works on the site. Why? Well let me give you an example of this.

So we will say two of the main points that makes slayers what they are is to consume the element of their magic and the ability to enter an extremely powerful form after consuming excess of it. So if I am a non-slayer that wants to be one but can't get the position I want, then by the freedom of the rules I can still achieve this. This would be done by putting the ability to freely consume a magic of one element(whatever it is) and it would get past since their's nothing against it in the rules right?

So then I move on to my secondary or my custom lineage, in which whatever it is I sneak in a force like mechanic to where I can over-store mana and enter a enhanced state similar to force. And since their is nothing against the rules in including this, I now have a cheaper version of a slayer magic since it contains both the two most defining abilities of it. Not to mention all the other things I could add with this.

Now I can understand, you would think the grading staff would prevent such copy and pasting of slayer abilities unless they included more specifications or requirements for the ability to happen. But the thing is not all the staff agree on this, why? Because I have heard and seen cases to where a mod would deny a UA on a magic because it was to slayer like...and other times by a different mod its passed on through. Now yes, every magic can be different and with the right balancing maybe a copy and paste of a slayer ability can be allowed. But in my opinion, in cases like this then the magic should not be as strong in comparison to a slayer of that element.
(Think of a fire elemental with a fire magic that is able to freely consume or actually absorb fire like a fire slayer can, but only because they also put in a weakness that not only are their spells weak to water, but also take more damage if hit with a water spell. While in contrast a fire slayer does not need to say they are weak to water magic as much as the fire elemental would be)

So I felt I started to get off topic with that last bit, but here's my main point of the thread. I want there to be a rule stating you cannot have a copy and paste of slayer abilities because of the risk of psuedo-slayers. Not because the consumption mechanic should be focused only on slayers because I think a consumption mechanic is ok so as long it's balanced on non-slayers(refer to my example of a rainbow magic on the first post of this thread).

Not because slayers are in dire need of a buff or nerf because their either too weak or too strong, actually how a slayer magic works in terms of fighting style, magic mechanics, strenghts and weaknesses is mostly up to the roleplayer(and again we have guidelines to how a slayer magic could work and should only be followed if in a PvP scenario only if the people involved agree to follow the guidelines).

But because their is nothing in the rules against someone making a slayer magic either by dividing up the abilities in primary, secondary magics, or lineages, OR have it so that by the combination of all three make that caster a slayer. Now yes, someone going through this effort would be considered weaker then a actual slayer because they have to put slots for a UA, but on a site to where you have to either apply for a slayer position or buy a larcima through one way or another, then I think it should be common sense then to prevent people from becoming slayers without actually going through the steps meant to gain a slayer.

Another thing is, if someone is able to make a slayer mage by means of sneaking the abilities through the apps and what-not, then they don't have to follow slayer guidelines. Sounds odd, but a slayer mage that is not considered a actual slayer means they don't have to say they require X amount of mana to enter force or follow the guide of consumption, or have to share a weakness because they are not considered a specific slayer. Meaning it could be possible that some could create a slayer magic that is not one at the same time, and yet trumps all other slayer magics.(This example is however a worst-case example, but the potential is still there for this to happen).

And finally, we have it here confessed even by people who are or have been slayers that their might be too much slayers on the site. Now I don't think we can ever curb the amount of people wanting to be slayers(because they want to rp that out and try to enjoy doing so), but what would you rather have? Would you rather have slayers running around that gained it by either earning a position, donated for VIP which helps keep the site running, a larcima given to them by someone else who no longer wished to be a slayer, or someone else who put down abilities in order to mimic a slayer?

Again, unless it relates to the original topic, then please don't post, since I rather discuss the whole "Immune to slayer consumption" on a different thread(whether I make it or someone else does).