Increase the Incentives

I still don't find the number of Darks, satisfying because most roleplayers are hell bent focused on what is ethical for their character and what is not. Know this, if there aren't anymore dark mages, there can no longer be evil or war.

This is an important asset that must be maintained and I suggest that staff give people incentives to be a dark mage.

OR! Staff would bend one of the rules when it comes to Alt accounts:

You must have at least one Legal and one Dark Mage accounts Upon getting a third or so, just for the number of darks to increase a bit.

I don't mind a 40-60 Dark and legal ratio but 20-80 is not satisfactory.

One dark mage can do considerably more damage within even a single post than legal mages,  the ratio is not bad at all.   Few dark mages are preferable, and there is no real reason to have more.  There is no balance to be had and no contested jobs or events.

I would even recommend the opposite.  Limit the amount of dark mages.  Then provide actual reasons to be a dark mage. I don't want to see it be just some whimsy thing to do just because, and I don't feel it's particularly legitimate to throw half-arsed 'dark' characters into the mix just because.


The problem is why.   Why do this or that when it would be reversed in the very next topic or completely inconsequential outside of that one topic.   Why do this or that when within even the same topic things can often be completely undone with a spell.   Thousands of dead?  No matter.  One guild spell and all is well again.

Want to go under the radar?   The Sensory ability that everyone gets gets measured in kilometers and abused even on its own let alone with actual sense based abilities on top of that.  The supposed ability to suppress that doesn't do anything.    Not a problem?  Then have every hero randomly appear or be present anyway somehow.

Some twit standing in your way from some goal or agenda?  You need to BS a reason to let them live and not kill them.

You have to wade through so much junk to try to be an effective dark mage that it is simply not worth it unless you have a solid concept you want to play,  or just don't care about or notice all that junk.

Well, while I agree that incentives to join Dark Guilds would be highly encouraged...
I don't think the staff needs to force people to join a dark guild.  To be honest, if I was forced to RP a certain way, I wouldn't enjoy that character in the slightest.  

While I get where you're going with this, forcing a balance in numbers for the sake of forcing balance won't make anyone happy.  Now if there were incentives for people going dark such as:
- Events geared towards Dark Guilds (due to the last 2 being geared mainly towards Good Guys)
- Special things that Dark Guildies can do...   Let's say... Invasions *Hears gasps resound*

While I don't think forcing people to join is a good idea, I also don't think restricting people from join is a good idea either.  Restricting someone who wants to play a dark character, whether they do a good job or not, isn't a very productive thing to do.  It shouldn't be a privilege that people need to apply for.  If someone wants to play a dark character, they should have every opportunity to do so.

However, there are ways of playing an effective dark character; but as Red stated, it's very difficult to do so when there is a ton of metagaming going on due to the site mechanics.  Dark characters can't do dark things without your run-of-the-mill hero running around trying to solve every crime.  That's not how dark characters can work nor is it good for any kind of plot.  It's stupid and immature role-playing.  I agree with you on that point, Red.

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I'd rather the staff let dark mages do dark mage things and allow people to do dark magey things.  The staff also ought to give the Dark Mages a chance to have some representation in terms of events.  Considering the current event and the previous event, the amount of things that a Dark Mage can do is slim to almost none since everything is catered to being 'the good guy'.  

And what good is a bad guy with a Two-Dollar plan when you have Gary Stues and Mary Sues running around mucking up their plan before they can hatch?

Another clear issue is that whatever a Player dark mage can do, some random X-rank NPC will do everything better and consume all spotlight and attention.

True. Perhaps it could be suggested that not all NPCs in events are X Rank? But that is out of my scope

Anastasia Isayev wrote:True.  Perhaps it could be suggested that not all NPCs in events are X Rank?  But that is out of my scope

Utilize existing player dark mages to run events. There is one huge aspect of fiction that this site almost entirely lacks: Plot devices.

You usually cannot find the super-dangerous-secret-tome and hatch some super-duper-evil plot. Heero as Yugi was able to do just that likely because of his standing with staff at the time, and summon Acnologia with Warden. A year ago or so I tried to plan something with staff myself as well, only to be taken as a special snowflake and literally hated for suggesting it.

Players need to be involved in events. It's almost always BS'd NPCs. Plot-given objects or simply situations can accomplish much more satisfying topics. The only way to come close to this is to use your own existing normal-old items and try to attach significance to them, though they remain normal items the same as any other.

It's a bit extreme to do so, but even say an D-rank dark mage could stumble upon something that can explode into an event. Or a large number of low ranked dark mages could themselves be augmented by the big-bad's fancy Plot Device object or ritual of some sort.

Eris wrote:

Anastasia Isayev wrote:True.  Perhaps it could be suggested that not all NPCs in events are X Rank?  But that is out of my scope

Utilize existing player dark mages to run events.   There is one huge aspect of fiction that this site almost entirely lacks:  Plot devices.

You usually cannot find the super-dangerous-secret-tome and hatch some super-duper-evil plot.  Heero as Yugi was able to do just that likely because of his standing with staff at the time,  and summon Acnologia with Warden.   A year ago or so I tried to plan something with staff myself as well,  only to be taken as a special snowflake and literally hated for suggesting it.

Players need to be involved in events.  It's almost always BS'd NPCs.   Plot-given objects or simply situations can accomplish much more satisfying topics.    The only way to come close to this is to use your own existing normal-old items and try to attach significance to them,  though they remain normal items the same as any other.

It's a bit extreme to do so, but even say an D-rank dark mage could stumble upon something that can explode into an event.  Or a large number of low ranked dark mages could themselves be augmented by the big-bad's fancy Plot Device object or ritual of some sort.

I actually really like that. I did something like that in another site which I called Dynamic Events. Ask Daiki about what happened when he made an explosion at a Holy Site.

But yes, giving more interaction with the players (in this case, the dark players) and giving them a role in events would actually make being a Dark Mage more exciting. Considering the fact that there is no real death on this site (unless the player controlling the character wills it) using Dark Mage Player Characters be the star of these events sounds like a BEAUTIFUL and spectacular plan.

Because, to be perfectly honest, I don't particularly care about the NPCs of the Priory nor do I really care about the NPCs in the Rising Tides. I would be, however, more interested and more engaged if the people doing the evil things are actual PCs that my character may have interaction with outside of events.

<3 Love that idea, Red!

I disagree that there should be incentives. Otherwise people will make characters just for those incentives and then probably make half-assed characters or kill them off and use those incentives on legals.

What we need is to encourage more dark activity and that does not include bringing back invasions. What would be cool is if a group of dark mages found something akin to the accelerator in Skullduggery Pleasent that boosts them to levels for an event so that they can do some awesome stuff.

We could also do with evening the playing field between darks and legals somewhat as whilst rank isn't as big a deal anymore e.g. an A should be able to beat a H through decent RP there are still a lot more higher ranking legals than darks.

Furthermore, i think events should be death enabled as we do have a revival system in place.


However, so far no dark mages have really stepped forward to staff (or they didn't when I was staff) with event ideas for them to be the big villain as such the staff create events like the priory and rising tides.

OH This thread is like a giant piece of F'in candy for me. So let me quote nearly everyone out here, and speak my 2cents... wait better not call it that, cause if you dont like to read, then skip this post, I'll be done with it eventually However lets get to addressing each post that I feel needs to be quoted, and of course, the first post starts now

Dubhlainn wrote:I still don't find the number of Darks, satisfying because most roleplayers are hell bent focused on what is ethical for their character and what is not. Know this, if there aren't anymore dark mages, there can no longer be evil or war.

This is an important asset that must be maintained and I suggest that staff give people incentives to be a dark mage.

OR! Staff would bend one of the rules when it comes to Alt accounts:

You must have at least one Legal and one Dark Mage accounts Upon getting a third or so, just for the number of darks to increase a bit.

I don't mind a 40-60 Dark and legal ratio but 20-80 is not satisfactory.

While incentives are nice, there are things that should be refined, such as the no more than 3 H-ranks in a guild if dark, cause well lets face it... we're not going to give up one of our bad guys to the magic council as a play thing. Along with alliances too. An alliance is to prevent too many forces joining up that can potentially threaten the magic council... once again, bad guys do not play by those rules.

I cannot say I agree with forcing anything however, and in any anime, no matter what the dark side always was outnumbered by that of the good. Although it wont be every encounter that way, but generally the side of good will have more than that of the side of dark. Its how people play, and not everyone is comfortable with playing an illegal mage.

In fact, most prob wont due to potential ooc things. I wont lie, I've thought of quitting and/or killing Raiza off because of the hostility I was given by some members because I turned Raiza into a dark mage. While that bit of me is irrelevant about the topic, it still brings up the point, that there are incentives to not join the dark, don't know what those incentives are? Might look at how a lot of us are treated. Some members have even quit for that already. Ask for proof? Go look at some of the reasons people quit.
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Alright, next quote

Eris wrote:One dark mage can do considerably more damage within even a single post than legal mages,  the ratio is not bad at all.   Few dark mages are preferable, and there is no real reason to have more.  There is no balance to be had and no contested jobs or events.

I would even recommend the opposite.  Limit the amount of dark mages.  Then provide actual reasons to be a dark mage.   I don't want to see it be just some whimsy thing to do just because,  and I don't feel it's particularly legitimate to throw half-arsed 'dark' characters into the mix just because.


The problem is why.   Why do this or that when it would be reversed in the very next topic or completely inconsequential outside of that one topic.   Why do this or that when within even the same topic things can often be completely undone with a spell.   Thousands of dead?  No matter.  One guild spell and all is well again.

Want to go under the radar?   The Sensory ability that everyone gets gets measured in kilometers and abused even on its own let alone with actual sense based abilities on top of that.  The supposed ability to suppress that doesn't do anything.    Not a problem?  Then have every hero randomly appear or be present anyway somehow.

Some twit standing in your way from some goal or agenda?  You need to BS a reason to let them live and not kill them.

You have to wade through so much junk to try to be an effective dark mage that it is simply not worth it unless you have a solid concept you want to play,  or just don't care about or notice all that junk.

&

Being a dark mage is work, just like being a good mage. There has been accounts of a player going to staff to try and start a dark event themselves, problem is we just do not have the force right now. If I was H-rank, you'd bet your butt I'd be causing an event if i could.

limit us? Thats the most hillarious thing I've ever seen. Fact is, not every bad guy(or good guy) is always fleshed out as much as the others.

Yes it can happen to good people as well. Cause I've seen my share of "I'm good just because I'm good, and it is human nature to be amazingly unswaying good for no reason" yeah that happens, just like "I'm evil, no reason, but I'm evil"

Look at Raiza, he was a mercanary with no whims towards good or evil. He'd take a life for no matter what side until he was swayed by the dark, and eventually corrupted through time. (gotta love that starting @ guildless plot) Some people are like that. others, like I'll use Vampire as an example. Were a 'good person', yet their personality, and magic conflicted, eventually got converted over to the dark side. Others, like Black rose, were a group of mercs (like Raiza was), that actually went to the good side. In fact, I see a few Black rose members as the 'path I didn't take' and it is amazing, I loved how they rp'd it and i applaud that guild, and the guild leader.

Yeah, we can do A LARGE bit of damage, but truth is... it'll never exist. Look how many times places have lost political figures, or rune knight officers. How many times has the river village lost that dang Rune Major? Like seriously? that place should know never to let rune knights in it by now! We can do damage, but until it is an event, it'll never be forever or established, or a massive giant (open) thread.

Likewise, if said did happen, good sides couldn't just 'lol I fix' until the same happens. It allows a perfect harmony balance, allowing them to interact with each other when times were right. Also, while the 'bs reason to let live' can be a problem. It also allows future rp, because lets face it, you hate the rule now right? Wait till you're cornered by someone stronger than you, and you get to live because of the rule! Then you'll like it.

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Now next quote AND the bread and butter of my post!

Anastasia Isayev wrote:Well, while I agree that incentives to join Dark Guilds would be highly encouraged...
I don't think the staff needs to force people to join a dark guild.  To be honest, if I was forced to RP a certain way, I wouldn't enjoy that character in the slightest.  

While I get where you're going with this, forcing a balance in numbers for the sake of forcing balance won't make anyone happy.  Now if there were incentives for people going dark such as:
- Events geared towards Dark Guilds (due to the last 2 being geared mainly towards Good Guys)
- Special things that Dark Guildies can do...   Let's say... Invasions *Hears gasps resound*

While I don't think forcing people to join is a good idea, I also don't think restricting people from join is a good idea either.  Restricting someone who wants to play a dark character, whether they do a good job or not, isn't a very productive thing to do.  It shouldn't be a privilege that people need to apply for.  If someone wants to play a dark character, they should have every opportunity to do so.

However, there are ways of playing an effective dark character; but as Red stated, it's very difficult to do so when there is a ton of metagaming going on due to the site mechanics.  Dark characters can't do dark things without your run-of-the-mill hero running around trying to solve every crime.  That's not how dark characters can work nor is it good for any kind of plot.  It's stupid and immature role-playing.  I agree with you on that point, Red.

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I'd rather the staff let dark mages do dark mage things and allow people to do dark magey things.  The staff also ought to give the Dark Mages a chance to have some representation in terms of events.  Considering the current event and the previous event, the amount of things that a Dark Mage can do is slim to almost none since everything is catered to being 'the good guy'.  

And what good is a bad guy with a Two-Dollar plan when you have Gary Stues and Mary Sues running around mucking up their plan before they can hatch?

Okay so, events, no lie this is what royal pisses me off.

The last two events I wanted to partake in. In fact, Rising tide I asked if there was any way I could be recognized by the enemy npcs as an ally so I can be part of the event and do evil!

But.... nope

Got told(and dont ask who, its been friggan ages) that the NPC will not 'align' themselves with anyone but the npc.

If that the entire event... forces you to be good then! Unless you took the incentive to do damage, and avoid the evil that tried to kill you, meaning you had to cope with the good side, which vastly out numbered, and the NPC that could cause problems as well. The entire event was even clear in "for the good" and "Help" which threw a LOT of the dark mages aside, and it was one of the times where I just simply had to stay quiet, not do much, and look on with idle glee that I wish i could have partaken in an event for once.

Then I remembered, just like the other mini-events(non-ic) that I wanted to partake in, such as the christmas or the valentines one. Sure... I'd of loved to partake in them both, but as hated as I've felt, that'd of been a serious problem

Now, I do not agree an event should be forced good or 'forced bad'. IN fact, it'd only cause hurt feelings to one side if it continued, but instead, we should allow both sides to partake equally. example :Is fiore under attack by a big bad dragon? Who lead it? Maybe the crimson night alliance did! and the dragon is on our side. The number of 'good' still vastly out numbers us. Another example one that is based on both would be, say (insert apocalyptic event like most events can be are) The good is trying to stop it. The dark... is trying to redirect it to cause mayhem to a certain part. like a tug of war almost. I do not agree the dark side needs staff to make an event for them for retribution for what they gave the legal side, yet I'll say the legal side needs no more events just 'handed' to them like it has been. The only 'forced' alignment of a event should be if it is guild/alliance caused. Then again, we do have 100yr jobs for a reason, no?

last point is I do agree with both red and Ana here though, it is hard playing a dark mage due to all the meta and 'lol I'm a hero' solving things

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Last quote I'mma do, but this is not going to be the last of my post

Shard wrote:However, so far no dark mages have really stepped forward to staff (or they didn't when I was staff) with event ideas for them to be the big villain as such the staff create events like the priory and rising tides.

That is untrue. As a C-rank mage(and you were admin at the time), I asked if there would be any hope to being a huge part of an event, and I was simply shunned away. I got told to just participate in an event and 'do my best as a c-rank'

No zack, you didn't say that to me, cause when I talked to you, you were a lot more sympathetic and went over a few ideas, but that conversation died off.

Now while, i'm done quoting people, here is the last of my post, and no I'm not going to do a "tl;dr" thing for anyone either.


Now, I not agree we need some magical power buff like Zack suggested, and I love the idea of what Red and Ana provided about causing actions, yet I've ran into the same problem, asking what'd happen if I did such and such. In fact I went to staff about what happens when I caused mas murder or damage, does it matter? Yeah I was told it was plot so it matters, however things get rebuilt, positions get replaced & yeah, I have no problem with that, but one thing stands is that it was an event. No, not site wide. Not everything is a 'site wide' thing after all.

Then there are the counter incentives to even go dark side. Immediately players see that guilds are vastly out numbered. Legal has 6 guilds + Rune knights + Magic council. So a total of 8 possible factions against

Tartarus, Savage Skull, Basilisk Fang


oh but Raiza... what about the non-aligned guilds. You all have Pharaoh's Call, The Golden Gear, Sleeping Forest, Laughing Coffin. (Then we also get to remember how a large non-aligned guild went good recently)

Well..... not really. Going down the list Pharaohs call is about betterment of life, while not bound by the legal mages. Next is golden gear(which I lit... know nearly nothing about...) Then sleeping Forest. This guild is lit... about making dark and light balanced. Once dark starts getting too strong, it'll go to the legal side, right now they're nuetral still, yet icly wise? it should be apparent to them (and the GM) darkness is vastly out numbered. Lastly is Laughing Coffin. OH I love this guild actually. Its pretty neat concept. ITs a guild for the guildless almost. Those who find no home with either the legal or illegal right now, just to expand the guild. Had I not joined SS or ST, I'd of prob ended up here.


So, what has dark done in response? We're currently trying to amass a new guild (oh but why not just increase the guilds you already have why make another?) Could the same not be said about infinity hydra? no one opposed that, and not many have opposed Divine Torment either. I think its an amazing thing Thorn is doing, and those who support it, rock on! Glad to have you on our side. More guilds offer a variety, and it was formed through plot. After all the gm is the clone experimentation of the leader of DT before that guild got abandoned long ago. In fact, the one thing the one incentive to joining the dark side I can see is. The guild creation rules are based on the # of guilds made right? Why force full price(5m) on a new dark guild, that is a) rebuilding from the old guild and B) we're already 2.1:1 ratio when it comes to legal vs illegal guilds.



Last note for this post that I'll say is this.

When I first joined this site, I saw new members welcomed to both sides, and no matter what side you choose, the other side always welcomed an rp.

While small instances of this are still true

This is not what I see any longer.



TL:dr? oh well. I'm not summarizing, Sorry.