Time=/=Power

So...Hi. It's me.

I'm here to pull up something which to my knowing has at least two times already been remarked upon in a thread specifically aimed to remark upon it. Not sure why that keeps happening, but if I had to make a guess I'd say it's because it's a bit puzzling.

In general you can assume that the Rank higher than your own is twice as powerful in pretty much every way. I think the only exception is H-Rank which, if these rules about Spell Fusion are correct, is three times as powerful as an S-Rank instead of just two (man those H-Rank guys are strong. How are there still any towns left standing?).

With every way I pretty much mean every. At some point I asked one of the staff what would happen if I just kept adding bonuses to my strength and speed until the total was a 100% bonus. The response was that if it was found out I would probably be forced to nerf it because I would functionally have the strength and speed of somebody of the next rank.

This basically means that ranking up is a cubic function (or to not sound too classy, basically every time you rank up your character just becomes twice as strong in every way). The only exceptions seem to be if for some reason your character doesn't increase in growth. Which in itself is rather odd, but that's another issue.

Twice the strength, twice the speed, twice the durability, twice the magic power, twice the awesomeness. In a standard situation there appear to be only two things, in fact, that do not follow this rule:

The amount of Spell Slots that you have, and the cooldown/duration limits on spells.

The first one makes sense. If every time that you ranked up you got double the amount of spells you'd end up with 32 spells at A-Rank, and keeping track of all of that would be a nightmare for everybody but the most meticulous people. There's also the fact that how many spells you know from an in-character point of view isn't directly linked to how strong you are. Stronger mages tend to have an easier time learning more spells, but the act of learning spells is simply a matter of dedication, effort and understanding.

The second part, the duration and cooldowns of spells, however, is a bit puzzling, at least to me.

The current ruling is that spells of each Rank have a limit to how long a spell can last and a limit to how short the cooldown can be. Both of these numbers go up with each Rank. Which means that a spell of a higher Rank is always going to have a higher cooldown, no matter what the spell actually does.

POINT OF ORDER (ignore this part of this post and I'll be assuming that you're either not fully paying attention or don't want to acknowledge it):

The rules about how long the durations and cooldowns are allowed to be are written down as supposed to be a GUIDE. Which means that they are not set in stone and one should not have to feel themselves restricted by them if the guidelines only make things more difficult.

HOWEVER, let's all for a moment be completely fair. No saving face, no attempts at trying to shove the less pleasant parts under the table:

How many staff people can honestly say that they actually go outside these guidelines on a regular basis? I say regular basis specifically so those who try to save face can't just be like 'Hey, I once allowed somebody a longer duration/short cooldown on this Blue Monday a couple of months back!'

How many people who aren't staff and who have been part of this site for a while feel secure in trying to add a spell to their repertoire which goes outside these guidelines, confident that the person who ends up reviewing their magic would not tell them to revert the numbers to those allowed according to the guidelines?

I'm a very strong pessimist, so it's very much possible that I'm thinking a bit too badly about how the staff treat these guidelines. However I still have this suspicion that a lot of people wish that they could make a high Rank spell with a low cooldown. A spell which doesn't have as much strength as a spell of that Rank could have, but instead is mostly powerful because it can be used so often. But they don't try because they don't believe that it would actually be accepted.

If I am wrong, by all means prove me wrong. In fact I would be very happy if I was wrong. My goal here is NOT to speak ill of staff or to cause more friction. So if you can show me that people can safely go outside those guidelines without being reprimanded, please do so.

END OF POINT OF ORDER.

As for those who point at Signature Spells, currently you can only have two Signature Spells. The first you get at C-Rank. The second you get at S-Rank. The amount of time it takes to get there is really, really big. The reason why S-Rank is held in high esteem is because it's a pretty impressive feat if you get all the way up there.

Not all Mages are Wizards. And by Wizard I mean the D&D definition. D&D Wizards are rather limited in casting their spells (allowed spells per day, have to prepare all spells at the beginning of the day), but they can have extremely powerful spells which can have very powerful effects. That's basically what these guidelines aim for.

But as I said, Wizards are not the only magic users. Some Mages are Sorcerers. D&D Sorcerers can cast a lot more spells each day than a Wizard can (I'm pulling the rules for the 3.5 edition here). They are limited in the raw power of their spells. But they don't have to prepare their spells. They can cast more spells each day. Rather than having displays of absolute power they are more like spellslingers.

The current guidelines make it rather hard to be more like a Sorcerer and less like a Wizard. Of course our system is too different from that of D&D to compare the two perfectly, but I think this example still somewhat gets the point across.

If I rank up (which I recently did), my first instinct is not to think of newer, stronger spells that I could put in my new Spell Slots. Instead my first instinct is to upgrade the spells that I already have, and just add new spells at the bottom. However that doesn't really work: if I have a spell that does C-Rank damage in a C-Rank Spell Slot, I would like to put it in a B-Rank Slot where it does B-Rank damage. And that's about the extent of how it would change. But right now I mostly get the feeling that if I tried that I would be told to also increase the cooldown. Even if the duration is instant, so I wouldn't even get that advantage, I'd still have to increase the cooldown, even though the spell I put in that B-Rank Spell Slot would basically be exactly the same as a C-Rank spell except with a bit more strength behind it.

I completely understand that if somebody uses a high Rank Spell Slot for a very impressive spell it needs the cooldowns and durations used in the guidelines. But if I instead just want to take lower ranked spells and then make those a bit more stronger (basically take all the C's in terms of effects and make those B's) then that spell is most likely not going to be on the same level of raw power as a spell which was intentionally made for a B-Rank Spell Slot.

In fact, I once wished that I could put a low and weak spell in a higher Spell Slot, keep the actual effects the same, and use the fact that it's in a higher Spell Slot to decrease the cooldown. If higher Spell Slots are supposed to be more impressive feats of magic, wouldn't it also be impressive if somebody could also just use a weaker spell with more raw power? Wouldn't it be impressive if a powerful mage could at high frequency use the same weaker spell over and over when weaker mages can only cast that spell once in a while?

If your power basically doubles when you reach the next Rank, why would a spell need to have a higher cooldown if the only change to it is that I double the amount of power I put behind it?

Well, that was basically it. I once again refer to the POINT OF ORDER, because it's rather important.

So...bring it. Say what you think. Although I would ask everybody to do their utmost best to avoid speaking as if from a higher vantage. It's one of the most common causes for friction.

tbh I don't understand cooldowns. Yes sure, "stop the spam of spells of course", but we build the magics to be versatile to fit every situation and there is magic power. Why have a cooldown system AND a magic power system. The magic power stops the spam already. Spam the same crazy spell like, 2-3 times and you are out cold, like how it would probably work canonically.

I think the cooldowns are a bit much, and spells aren't really able to customize too much in terms of balancing power, speed, size, etc. But fixing these problems would require a reworking of the spell system, if the staff is willing, that'd be great, but if not it's not the worst thing in the world. I've seen several systems on FT sites, being admin on a few of them, and it's all preference to the members. If the members like what we have now and it works, keep it, if they want change, then sometimes reworking a system is a good thing. I do agree with Fil on some points though.

unfortunately with so many newer rpers and the powerplaying issues that drove me away three months ago (which are cause by the terrible ranking system by the way). Those strict guidelines are almost a necessity, which is the fault of the site as a whole for not properly promoting story over power.

There are players who do it right. In fact most of the people I've chosen to rp with do it right but I've also rped with a limited number of people. Unfortunately from the perspective of a story heavy player missions are a broken travesty which promotes power playing which causes stricter guidelines to prevent unfair play from people who will openly abuse it. Looser rules will be great but until a lot of these more cultural issues are solved I don't see it happening.

Maybe I'm wrong and problems are solved. It has been 3 months. Just picking up where I left off.

So normally I avoid these kinds of discussions, but I've been seeing a lot of them lately, so why not I'll try and chime in a little bit. First off I may refer to my past experiences if at any point I sound like I am coming from the "higher than thou" podium, I don't mean to at all and it isn't my intention in the slightest.

Now from what I am seeing here there are two main problems that deal with the crunch (the stats, abilities, systems etc.) and one problem with RPing if I am wrong please chime in.

So the first issue I see people discussing right now is cooldowns (or the majority of people). The biggest argument against them is the fact that the MP system in place and that would stop spam naturally, which I agree is very true, it would help to cull the spam of spells however it isn't the main case. The reason cooldowns and durations exist like they do with a set pattern is to not only make things a little easier for mods to grade on average (yes there are exceptions but from what I have briefly seen they typically come with a charging time, or a more serious downside like damage to one's self etc, that would make spamming them not a good idea in the first place), but the main reason they exist is to prevent the flow of combat from becoming too one-sided. Here I'll try and explain my point.

Most Rp battles (I'm talking PvP, not jobs those have their own thing going on, a thing I like very much actually, except the imp job that one sucks... okay rant over.)  don't last very long, in fact I'd dare say they last maybe 8 posts, unless you two are incredibly even in your match up. The duration and cooldown of spells thus won't do much to hamper a combat situation except for when you choose to use it, knowing the possible consequences. It causes you to think rather than pop a spll and keep it up the entire fight, I've done this at other places with other systems and it effectively created a combo invincible monster. I could provide an example here, but it wouldn't fully apply to this system due to the cooldowns, and it would probably just seem like bragging which isn't my goal today, or really any day.

Regardless cooldowns aren't too big of an issue, maybe on longer jobs but not in PvP, all that matters is making the most of what you can do both ability wise and spell wise and create a harmony between both spells and abilities to where you can use nearly anything with anything and have an effective combo, besides popping so many spells at once would basically cause you to auto lose anyway, and that'd suck.

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Anyway, the second issue I see people talking about is the MP system and all that jazz, I'll be brief here. I've RPed on sites with systems like this, and systems without. Without the system people, lol spam things with boosts that are relative to various sources either in canon or their own imagination, and it's both incredibly fun and frustrating at the same time. Everyone has a different system, and thus people could either gimp themselves or actually overpower themselves, and modding it is a nightmare unless you know 100% what you are doing all the time, which no one does.

Having a universal system is awesome and it allows people to be an even playing ground (unless they add bonuses, but that's them choosing to do such with their abilities, which is fine that's the whole point of abilities.) and allows for everyone to walk in feeling relatively safe about how they will fight, knowing that they both stand a good chance. Heck even with rank differences this universal magic system helps out due to the higher rank, while stronger, their spells will take just as much as your's so if people play their cards right, it can still out to be a pretty fun fight. Focusing so much on ranks and power and not developing your character story arc and learning to use the tools you created properly isn't the fault of any system, but the player, and I think that's one of the main concerns about both systems, not the lol scrub part but the nervousness of trying to be better than each other and all that stuff, rather than just naturally getting used to your character and growing stronger in both plot and RP ability with them.

I wasn't that brief... my bad x_x

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Finally about the RPing and not focusing on your stories plot. Some people love the thrill of fighting, of pushing their characters to the limit and bragging about it. Some people couldn't care less and just want to have fun. I've hung out with both crowds and I can say I like the latter far more and would probably put myself somewhere in the middle. I love to try and make really strong powers, and I brag a bit about them to my friends, but I always end up using them for stupidly silly purposes. For example I've got an ability which can turn my character invisible to senses and such, it's pretty awesome and can be used to really screw someone out of a situation if not prepared... but all I use it for is showing how shy she is, and I have her hide in the corner with it even though people couldn't see her anyway... why? Cause it's fun and gives me something to write with, a quirk that goes beyond lol pwnage.

The only true advice I can ever give someone dealing with the problem of people not focusing on their stories is... simply don't RP with them. It's not like you have too, and I know it sounds bad like that, but it's true and should make you happy. Instead find people who are focused on their characters story arc's, and find a way to make that happen.

To add to the conversation rather than just respond, I've also seen people say that just doing missions isn't really focusing on story and such, and I think that's a misconception that needs to go away. Missions allow for creative story arc's to happen within them and allow for various story plots to evolve, and for teams to grow. Everything is character growth it's just up to the player to decide how they wish to apply it.

Anyway, I've talked your guy's ears off long enough, and if you want me to spoiler this stuff I'll edit my post so it isn't miles long. Anyway, hopefully I hit some point in this little talk and helped someone out, if I didn't then well uh... I could always just link to a silly vine of a cat... right?

I don't like the overbearing limitations preventing ranks from leaking into higher rungs.  It makes things more stale and limits variety.

There should be nothing wrong with the occasional spell that has effectiveness of a higher ranking spell in some respects just as there shouldn't (and shouldn't be, I believe, already) a problem with a spell having sub-ranking aspects (Such as C-rank damage on a B-rank spell).

Keeping things too restricted damages an RP sites variety and creativity.  An RP site.  Creativity.
What is more,  speaking as someone from the max'd rank,   it limits those of lower rank from having as much a chance against you as they probably should.  Anyone who says a lower rank has a chance against a higher rank isn't being very practical.   A chance,  yes,  if the lower rank is highly capable while the higher is not very capable and whatever other case by case factors.   But generally if the higher rank does not want to lose, they probably wont.   
The difference between a B-rank mage and an A-rank mage shouldn't be that insurmountable.  

And lastly,  one major strike against this limiting restriction is that it doesn't allow interesting effects such as Self-Sacrificing magic.  Things that harm oneself or have major drawbacks and/or difficulties in use.  Spells that should do above and beyond the function of any other spell of their rank.

Make your spell harm yourself if you want.  Make it sacrifice a limb or leave you unconscious as soon as it is cast.   As of now and has always been on this site,  that spell can't do any more than any other spell of its rank making it entirely pointless beyond basic RPing at the cost of gimping yourself.

King Zenshin wrote:tbh I don't understand cooldowns. Yes sure, "stop the spam of spells of course", but we build the magics to be versatile to fit every situation and there is magic power. Why have a cooldown system AND a magic power system. The magic power stops the spam already. Spam the same crazy spell like, 2-3 times and you are out cold, like how it would probably work canonically.

All the this.
MP already prevents spam of the bigger things that are more effective for their rank.  And Spam is NOT a bad thing to begin with.  Magic is a tool at a mages disposal and having cooldowns should be a balancing factor dependent on the spell itself (Not rank).

Lexa Grimoire wrote:

now even with signature spells, the rules say that the signature CD is 0 posts, unless a mod deems that it needs a CD. The problem with it is, when some mods grade signatures they apply the same CD rule as normal spells. If a spell has a duration of 3 on a signature spell, I think it should have a CD of 2, as the rules state that the cooldown on signatures is much less (paraphrase) than that of a normal spell...

Thissss
Allll the thissss.

Having been the one to make the signature spell concept,   it is frustrating for me to see people negate the entire point of having signature spells.
Signature Spells are supposed to be freely utilized spells completely available and at the mage's fingertips just as readily as they could strike with a fist or sword to keep pure-spell mages up to par with the mages that are loaded out with weapons.     Little Miss Tiffy over there with her frilly dress shouldn't exactly be throwing around a sword seven times her own size after all,  she's a mage not a warrior.  

But nuuuu,  gotta cripple'em.



Adoptable's post was also nice owo;